Ethanol Question

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Ethanol Question

, both OMC and Mercury do NOT recommend running ethanol fuel in their marine engines.

Well..... the factory manual for my 1990 Johnson 200 says that 87 octance gasoline with up to 10 percent ethanol is acceptable.

The problems you describe happen with there's a significant temperature drop, and a filter/separator would take care of that. It'll trap the ethanol/water phase in the bowl which you can visually detect and drain - problem solved.

 

[1979checkmate]

Re: Ethanol Question

THey say it is acceptable to run up to 10% if there is no other choice. But they do recommend running pure unleaded if possible. I run a fuel/water seperator as well.. every boat should have one. They are cheap.

 

[mc66]

Re: Ethanol Question

all motors,gaskets, hoses, ect made after 1997 were ethanol compatable

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: Ethanol Question

It is not a matter of "safe"..ethanol generates a large increase of particles in your fuel..resulting in increased issues with fuel injectors and pumps and pump filters...a clogged injector can pop a piston and destroy an engine. I know outboard mechanics that call the government mandate to put ethanol in our fuel supply..the outboard mechanic bail out program, because they are making so much money cleaning fuel systems from all the gunk ethanol creates. it is such a bad problem that I am selling my EFI and going back to carbs..as soon as i get my EFI back from the shop..

 

[gss036]

Re: Ethanol Question

I stopped in a local Union76 station today and they said they do not have ethanol gas. Was not all that cheap though, $3.44+ for regular.

 

[jtsailjt]

Re: Ethanol Question

You guys singing the praises of ethanol are living in a fantasy world but I notice that most of you seem to come from corn growing regions of the midwest so maybe that has something to do with your bias, wishful thinking?

Every single outboard or snowmobile mechanic or small engine mechanic I know has told me that here in Maine, since ethanol became mandatory in all gas, they have been completely deluged with customers engines with problems that they never used to see. It's not even a question or just a few questionable problems, they know exactly what they are seeing and they are all DELUGED with these problems and it's the same story at every dealership or mechanics shop! Besides the well documented direct effect on older engines rubber and plastic parts that E10 has, the ethanol gas can't be stored for long without absorbing water (something our outboards don't like to digest) and the ethanol also "cleans" the inside of your fuel tanks and lines so all that crud that's built up over many years ends up trying to get into your fuel injectors, also not something even modern outboards like to digest. If you don't have a metal fuel tank, it'll even start to dissolve your fiberglass tank and start feeding it into the engine! I have an older Grady with a 200hp EFI but luckily my tank is made of aluminum. For protection, I have 2 water separating fuel filters in line (one inside the engine and one outside the cowling) with each other and always add Seafoam to my fuel, and during the winter I drain my tank and run the fuel out of the lines. But last summer, after only about 25 hours of running time, when I dumped the fuel out of my 2 fuel filters, they BOTH were 50% water and 50% gas. That never happened prior to having ethanol in the gas. Prior to the season, my 250 total running time EFI engine wasn't running well at all and would only push the boat at about 38mph. Mercury dealer mechanic did a lot of troubleshooting and found that the problem was clogged injectors. Had them cleaned and now the boat once again has huge power out of the hole and top speed is back up to 52mph.

It's definitely important to do what we can to protect our engines by not leaving E10 in our tanks for long, and to use a good quality fuel filter or two and empty the water out of them on a regular basis and use an additive to help stabilize our fuel, but even if you do that, if you have an older engine or older tank and lines, some of the dissolved crud gets through and will have an effect on your engine as it tries to pass through the extremely small holes that are your injectors. If your injectors gets partially clogged, that will lean out your fuel/air mixture and can cause your engine to overheat and possibly seize, so as long as we are stuck with ethanol in our fuel, it's something we all need to stay on top of and have addressed at the first sign of problems, before it gets bad enough to destroy our expensive outboards.

 

[1979checkmate]

Re: Ethanol Question

Here in Missouri, Premium unleaded is still pure gasoline by law... for now. My inline 6 seams to like the higher octane anyways.

 

[wiliermdb]

Re: Ethanol Question

I've heard both sides of this debate and have seen the damage first hand that ethanol can have on older 2 strokes.

It's costly to update your fuel system to fight off the damage ethanol can do to an older 2 stroke. Change your tank to a newer ethanol approved type (if possible). Change all fuel lines inside and outside of the motor. (cheap) Those two steps eliminate most issues people are having. Some of the cheaper off the shelf fuel lines have a clear liner inside that ethanol will eventually eat up and those little pieces will travel down to the filter, clog it and lean the engine out and that's where the damage starts. I have seen this first hand many times. It looks like grains of sugar but it is the lining that has come apart. This is with newer cheap fuel lines. Get the best that states "Ethanol Approved."

Use a quality stabilizer every time. Check filters frequently for any trash and clean and change often. Install a fuel/water separator if you live with high humidity.

I'm lucky that the station at the entrance of my neighborhood sells straight gas and there are about 15 stations in a 10 mile radius that still offer it.

I've been forced to run E10 in my 1996 Evinrude 88 SPL and had no ill issues. I pumped it and ran it out in less than 24 hours. Got home and filled up with straight gas and ran in the driveway for 5 minutes on the hose and no issues.

A friend ran 18 gallons of E10 through his early 2000 Yamaha 15 hp and for some reason 3 seals crumbled and failed. Was this a direct effect of E10? Seems to lean you mind that way that after several years of running gas everything was fine and then after a short time of E10 you have issues. Many repair centers have photos posted in the shop of damage supposedly caused by the use of E10 in older OB's.

 

[tx1961whaler]

Re: Ethanol Question

A friend ran 18 gallons of E10 through his early 2000 Yamaha 15 hp and for some reason 3 seals crumbled and failed. Was this a direct effect of E10? Seems to lean you mind that way that after several years of running gas everything was fine and then after a short time of E10 you have issues. Many repair centers have photos posted in the shop of damage supposedly caused by the use of E10 in older OB's.

An early 2000 Yamaha was designed to run on E10 out of the factory, as are most boat motors from the mid 80's onward. He just had bad luck and blamed it on E10 because that's what everyone else does.

 

[jtsailjt]

Re: Ethanol Question

An early 2000 Yamaha was designed to run on E10 out of the factory, as are most boat motors from the mid 80's onward. He just had bad luck and blamed it on E10 because that's what everyone else does.

Funny how "bad luck" seems to follow the E10 everywhere! Even if you have a brand new engine, the ethanol will separate out water from your gasoline, and it will dissolve all kinds of junk from your fuel tank and lines and carry it all into your injectors. If you have a newer engine and a new boat with new tank and fuel lines, as long as you never let E10 sit in your tank for long enough for it to separate you'll probably be OK, but for the vast majority of boaters who don't fall into that category (newer boat, newer engine, always fresh gas), they need to take precautions. Of course the only real long term solution is to go back to eating corn and burning gasoline. It makes NO SENSE to be burning ethanol in our vehicles and it's about time that we all let our politicians know that.

 

[RunningonEmpty]

Re: Ethanol Question

After having all needles and seats lock up, then buying gas that was evidently not mixed properly by the station - ratios of low lead and mixing ethanol laced gas with it causes major separation problems. It also cleans all the junk out of the storage tank at the gas station and allows you to pay a healthy price for water and junk. Leaving me stranded on the lake. Found an inch and a half of water in the bottom of a 24 gallon tank in my Bass boat. Adjusted to the ethanol, but with an older motor that required premixing the oil with the gas - I experience separation as fast as within a week. So real problems I have experienced with Ethanol laced gas E-10. Had the affects of alcohol on this older engine after 28 years of running this 200 HP Mercury at 6000 RPM routinely - it swallowed a reed valve that my mechanic said was compromised by E-10. Thanks Washington, you are bailing out all the mechanics - of course they are now all overworked. Question - what about running 100 octane low lead that you can buy at local airports in your outboards. Here in Texas they have pushed the ethanol on every station and you can't find anything else.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Ethanol Question

Question - what about running 100 octane low lead that you can buy at local airports in your outboards.

Well, aside from being against Federal and state laws that WILL get you in a crack if you get caught (chances of which are probably ZERO)

Running Avgas will just cause lead fouling of your pistons, cyl heads, plugs and exhaust system, (and of course the water you're swimming in)

The tolulene may melt rubber components in your fuel system worse than any "ethanol-laced' gas you ever ran.

AND, (unless you are running MUCH higher compression) you'll get NO performance increase......all for a couple of dollars more per gallon..........

swallowed a reed valve that my mechanic said was compromised by E-10.

The guy who claimed the ethanol damaged the reed valve shouldn't be working on lawnmower engines, let alone marine engines.....

 

[emoney]

Re: Ethanol Question

By no means would anyone ever confuse me as anything remotely close to an "expert", or even half knowledgeable for that matter, however I feel impelled to weigh in on this. Most of the conversations that people hear coming from marine mechanics, etc. are mainly "hearsay". What happens when something like this occurs is usually a "Well, I know a guy who knew a guy, who was married to a lady who's brother, had a problem" and it's like a wildfire, just spreads from there. If you'll "read-between-the-lines", most of these folks say something similar to "Well, all I know is that ever since they put Ethanol in the gas, I sure have been replacing a lot of fuel systems....". Hmmm, sounds familiar. In the 1930's and
1940's, kids got ear infections. As a matter of fact, a LOT of kids got ear infections. Well, some Dr. somewhere decides to perform a "Mastoidectomy" and the kid got better. Before you knew it, almost every Dr. that served pediatric patients, all over the country, was performing Mastoidectomy's" on their child patients. UNTIL, they figured out that simple antibiotics would cure the problem. Guess what? No more mastoidectomys. The bad news is, a large majority of these kids have turned into HoH patients (Hard of Hearing) and are suffering from permanent hearing loss. So, basically, a bunch of people over-reacted and because of hearsay, ended up harming the patients they were trying to help.

From what I know about the basic chemistry of Ethanol gas, and the limited knowledge I have about outboard motors, it looks like the problem doesn't lie in the motors but in the plastic parts of the fuel delivery system. Coincidentally, most of the "issues" are occuring in older model engines. Couldn't a lot of the problem stem from a maintenance issue? I know that alcohol and plastic don't mix, and as long as we're cognizant of the issue at hand, there shouldn't be any cause for Chicken Little to reign supreme. Just my 2cents. Now, go back to ignoring me.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Ethanol Question

Here in Texas they have pushed the ethanol on every station and you can't find anything else.

Hmm...


Well, I could be wrong but there's more than a few stations in TX that sell ethanol free gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=TX

I know that alcohol and plastic don't mix

Yup....certain plastics.....

there shouldn't be any cause for Chicken Little to reign supreme.

Yeah.....there's a LOT of that going around..... and not just in marine engines.....

 

[jtsailjt]

Re: Ethanol Question

By no means would anyone ever confuse me as anything remotely close to an "expert", or even half knowledgeable for that matter, however I feel impelled to weigh in on this. Most of the conversations that people hear coming from marine mechanics, etc. are mainly "hearsay". What happens when something like this occurs is usually a "Well, I know a guy who knew a guy, who was married to a lady who's brother, had a problem" and it's like a wildfire, just spreads from there. If you'll "read-between-the-lines", most of these folks say something similar to "Well, all I know is that ever since they put Ethanol in the gas, I sure have been replacing a lot of fuel systems....". Hmmm, sounds familiar. In the 1930's and
1940's, kids got ear infections. As a matter of fact, a LOT of kids got ear infections. Well, some Dr. somewhere decides to perform a "Mastoidectomy" and the kid got better. Before you knew it, almost every Dr. that served pediatric patients, all over the country, was performing Mastoidectomy's" on their child patients. UNTIL, they figured out that simple antibiotics would cure the problem. Guess what? No more mastoidectomys. The bad news is, a large majority of these kids have turned into HoH patients (Hard of Hearing) and are suffering from permanent hearing loss. So, basically, a bunch of people over-reacted and because of hearsay, ended up harming the patients they were trying to help.

From what I know about the basic chemistry of Ethanol gas, and the limited knowledge I have about outboard motors, it looks like the problem doesn't lie in the motors but in the plastic parts of the fuel delivery system. Coincidentally, most of the "issues" are occuring in older model engines. Couldn't a lot of the problem stem from a maintenance issue? I know that alcohol and plastic don't mix, and as long as we're cognizant of the issue at hand, there shouldn't be any cause for Chicken Little to reign supreme. Just my 2cents. Now, go back to ignoring me.

Interesting story about kids ear infections, but nothing at all to do with running ethanol in ouboards.

For YOU, someone who confesses he is not knowledgeable about this subject, it may well seem to be coming from a guy who knew a guy or was married to a lady whose brother...., but if you actually talk directly to people who have everyday contact with small outboards and make their living taking them apart, fixing them, and putting them back together so they run right, you will learn that the problem is very real and they have no doubts about it and will probably be able to point you to numerous engines in their shop awaiting rebuilds as a result of this. If it seems like just hearsay or chicken little talk to you, that just means you haven't sought out any first hand knowledge, but it's all around you if you go to any small engine repair shop in an area where ethanol is being used.

It's true that much of the problem begins with the detrimental effects that ethanol has on the fuel system, but it is then manifested in what this mess does as it moves downstream, eventually to the injectors, and we all know what happens when the injectors get partially clogged and the mixture gets leaned out too much on one or two of your cylinders. So, you can say that the problem is really with the fuel delivery system and you'd be sort of right, but that won't make your burned down engine run any better and it won't make your wallet any fatter after you finish paying for the additional maintenance required to avoid these problems.

The other bad part of burning ethanol, besides its negative effects on engines, is that it makes you get WORSE gas mileage and it takes more energy to produce it than it delivers, so HOW is that "green" and WHY are we continuing with this foolishness?

 

[Mi duckdown]

Re: Ethanol Question

The other bad part of burning ethanol, besides its negative effects on engines, is that it makes you get WORSE gas mileage and it takes more energy to produce it than it delivers, so HOW is that "green" and WHY are we continuing with this foolishness.
SPOT on JT. Government in the works

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Ethanol Question

The other bad part of burning ethanol, besides its negative effects on engines, is that it makes you get WORSE gas mileage and it takes more energy to produce it than it delivers, so HOW is that "green" and WHY are we continuing with this foolishness.
SPOT on JT. Government in the works

Well, you might have something there when you say you could get worse mileage with E10 and that would due to the REDUCED BTU content of the fuel.............
(all other engine things like compression ratio, timing carburation etc... being equal)

Since Ethanol has about 76,000 btu/gallon compared to approx 114,000 btu per gallon of (pure) gasoline.....when you make it a 10% mix of Ethanol, you're essentially taking the 0.9 gallon of gas and mixing it with 0.10 gallon of ethanol.

The new BTU numbers would be (0.9) x 114,000 = 102,600 btu and (0.10) x 76,000 = 7600 btu

Add the 2 together to total 1 gallon of (mix) E10, and you'd get approx 110,200 BTU in the fuel.

That's only a DROP of 3800 BTU/gallon........ a tad over 3% (3.333)
Since the new mix is higher octane the (immeasurable) drop in performance and subsequent slight increase in fuel consumption could be mitigated by a slight increase in compression and/or timing advance.....

If you were using it in your car......and you got 20 MPG, a 3% drop would only be 0.7 reduction in MPG. So you would go from 20 mpg to 19.3

My boat uses 10gallons per hour at 3000 RPM (30 MPH) which is 3 MPG..........

a 3% drop is 0.10 reduction in mileage..... that's 1 TENTH of a MPG!

I don't think I'm going to notice.....


Now as far as the energy to produce......you ABSOLUTELY have something there.....is it political with the farming subsidies, and other subsidies for ethanol production and is it causing food prices to rise etc?? Probably.


Is E10 'hurting' our engines?.....

Well, it hasn't hurt any gasoline powered equipment I own and I don't know anyone who has had a problem....

SO I am not quick to blame the fuel for anything......

I still don't like it because of the other "stuff"