Ethanol

[scotteam]

Okay does ethanol ruin the older two stroke motors really? Is it true that adding a higher oil ratio corrects the problem? It seems to me as if ethanol burns hotter then other fuels. if that is the case then Ethanol would really be like adding hotter plugs to your motor. Am i headed down the right way of thinking or not. What can i do to protect my older model motor?

 

[oldcatamount]

Re: Ethanol

I wouldn't suggest that you alter the fuel/oil ratio. You might consider changing your fuel lines to ethanol resistant lines, but other than that, go fishin' and enjoy your rig!!

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Ethanol

As was stated, 10% ethenol/90% Gasoline is fine to run your motor with. Replace the fuel lines with ethenol-resistant ones. Also, watch the fuel filters as the alcohol will loosen up any crud in the tank and lines and it will end up in your fuel filter or the motor.

Do not alter the gas/oil ratio....

 

[Port Monster]

Re: Ethanol

I wouldn't suggest that you alter the fuel/oil ratio. You might consider changing your fuel lines to ethanol resistant lines, but other than that, go fishin' and enjoy your rig!!

What he said with an additional thought that you add a water separating filter if one is not already on the boat; racor, etc. Ethanol apparently has a tendency to get water into the gas and a water separator could be the difference between losing a motor and enjoying a day on the water.

 

[Sixmark]

Re: Ethanol

What do you do if you get water in your gas? You add alcohol

What is ethanol? Alcohol

Put the alcohol resistant lines on your motor and call it a day.

You are not going to blow up your motor by running ethanol mix gasoline, your house will not blow up and your kids will not start on fire. People really need to stop spreading myths.

 

[fireman57]

Re: Ethanol

Actually, you add methanol which is methyl alcohol and ethanol is ethyl alcohol. Related but not the same.

 

[jimmacl]

Re: Ethanol

Also if the gas is left sitting in a tank near the water the ethanol absorbs more of the water in the air. When the ethanol gets full of water it settles in the bottom of the tank. Takes weeks but does happen.

jim

 

[F_R]

Re: Ethanol

scotteam, you say you have an "older" motor. Just what does that mean? Ethanol has been around for years, and no modifications are necessary for motors made in that time frame. Any older than that, the fuel hoses are due for replacement anyway, because of old age. Ethanol has nothing to do with it.

Don't be listening to all those horror stories.

 

[Port Monster]

Re: Ethanol

What do you do if you get water in your gas? You add alcohol

What is ethanol? Alcohol

Put the alcohol resistant lines on your motor and call it a day.

You are not going to blow up your motor by running ethanol mix gasoline, your house will not blow up and your kids will not start on fire. People really need to stop spreading myths.

DOE detected adverse performance impacts that are consistent with multiple reports by small engine owners who observed a deleterious influence of ethanol fuels on their lawn mowers, trimmers, and motor boats (Holshouser 2009; Johnson 2008; Williams 2008). In addition to performance and safety concerns, ethanol compatibility with existing engine materials is a key issue for non-road engines (Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI) 2009). The risk is especially dire for marine engines (U.S. EPA 1995). When water gets into the fuel tank, as often happens for boats, the ethanol-gasoline mixture separates. This mixture sinks to the bottom of the tank, and when drawn into the engine for combustion will affect boat performance or even shut down the engine completely (Oregon State Marine Board 2009).

In a recent statement to the Senate, the National Petrochemical & Refiners Association, National Marine Manufacturers Association and Outdoor Power Equipment Institute identified a wide range of safety concerns for ethanol blended fuel: higher exhaust gas temperatures; possible irreversible damage to engines; loss of durability due to incompatibility of materials; and disputes over warranty validity (Drevna 2009).

Just sayin - I have done a lot of reading on this topic and while I agree there is no conclusive study I have seen that says you will ruin your engine there also is not one that says you will not. So, do what you want but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

 

[BassHunter0123]

Re: Ethanol

always good to use marine grade sta-bil

 

[Sixmark]

Re: Ethanol

DOE detected adverse performance impacts that are consistent with multiple reports by small engine owners who observed a deleterious influence of ethanol fuels on their lawn mowers, trimmers, and motor boats (Holshouser 2009; Johnson 2008; Williams 2008). In addition to performance and safety concerns, ethanol compatibility with existing engine materials is a key issue for non-road engines (Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI) 2009). The risk is especially dire for marine engines (U.S. EPA 1995). When water gets into the fuel tank, as often happens for boats, the ethanol-gasoline mixture separates. This mixture sinks to the bottom of the tank, and when drawn into the engine for combustion will affect boat performance or even shut down the engine completely (Oregon State Marine Board 2009).

In a recent statement to the Senate, the National Petrochemical & Refiners Association, National Marine Manufacturers Association and Outdoor Power Equipment Institute identified a wide range of safety concerns for ethanol blended fuel: higher exhaust gas temperatures; possible irreversible damage to engines; loss of durability due to incompatibility of materials; and disputes over warranty validity (Drevna 2009).

Just sayin - I have done a lot of reading on this topic and while I agree there is no conclusive study I have seen that says you will ruin your engine there also is not one that says you will not. So, do what you want but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

And what do you think happens to engines running non ethanol gasoline when water gets into the tanks?

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Ethanol

ethanol pulls mosture out of the air gasoline does not just make sure you keep your tank sealed up and you wont have a problem

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Ethanol

Ethanol does not pull moisture out of the air. Moisture condenses into the fuel tank, as a normal course of heating and cooling cycles of the fuel tank, and humid air dictate. Auto fuel systems are sealed, boats fuel systems are not sealed, and hence are more succeptable to condensation.

Ethanol does absorb water and moisture in the fuel. When the percentage of water in the fuel is high enough phase seperation does occur. Prior to that threshold, ethanol helps the motor burn the gas/alcohol/water mix, just like the "Dry Gas" products. They do not use Methanol or Isoprophol alcohol in todays gasoline as a 10% mixture of that type of alcohol would ruin the motor.

 

[scotteam]

Re: Ethanol

Hey now no fighting :>

Okay first trip in the water everything ran like crud. The motor had a hard time staying running and kept stalling. replaced the plugs however they show good burn. I will say however motor sounded like running on one cylinder. after i changed the plugs we have a new story to report. Motor runs like a raped ape. In fact the damn thing screams across the water. I can water ski behind the darn thing. :>

Only issue is it wont stay idling in one place or allow me to troll. Now i am thinking i need a carb kit and i may solve all my issues. Figure the guy who owned it prior told me he was running between 30-1 to 40-1. I changed it back to 50-1 and like i said it runs smooth at high speed. I figured by running it 15 minutes at high speed it would clean out and run better. not the case at low speeds. thus i think it needs a carb kit. Or whatever you suggest that is easier LOL

 

[Port Monster]

Re: Ethanol

I am not saying this is your problem but you may also want to de-carb the motors. From what I have been reading a lot of folks do this once a year and it does not sound like yours has been done in a while if ever.

 

[JB]

Re: Ethanol

I am sick to death of all the ethanol myths and outright incorrect information. We have been using that stuff successfully for about 20 years.

If you do not take preventive measures you will get water mix in the bottom of the tank after letting it sit for months. If you do not use Stabil and a water separating filter you will have a problem after a long storage period.

The trouble is not because of the ethanol, it is because of neglect.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Ethanol

Gasoline has virtually no oxygen in it. Just trace amounts from other compounds that may be in the gas. The generally accepted formula for gasoline is C8H18, no oxygen.
So we have begun to add ethanol as a replacement for MTBE, and ethanol is 35% oxygen by weight. So we are adding with a 10% ethanol blend, 3.5 % oxygen by weight of a measure of ethanol, oxygen that is "included" in the gasoline blend in the form of molecules, oxygen that wasn't there before.

This has the effect of causing the burn chemistry to be lean, if you assume that the oxygen in the air that is mixed into the mess in the carburetor is constant. That shouldn't change, as our carbs have fixed air bleeds, and assuming the idle screws have stayed at the same setting.

You need right at a 14 to 1 ratio of air to gasoline for perfect combustion. Air is about 21% oxygen. So, we have more oxygen in the fuel, the same amount of air from the carbs, and I contend we are running/burning a leaner overall mix.

This will explain why I have to turn the idle mix screws out (richen the idle mix) 3 turns more than the book recommends to get a smooth running engine. (No lean sneezing.)

That's my theory....

 

[clw426]

Re: Ethanol

If you have to turn your idle mix screws out 3 extra turns, you have a more serious problem than a little extra oxygen

 

[daselbee]

Re: Ethanol

Nope I absolutely positively disagree. The engines are good.
This is on a 200 looper, and a 225 looper, three different powerheads, and multiple sets of carbs. I know what I am doing.
They are consistent...about three turns out more than the factory recommended setting.

Have you (clw426) ever experimented with engines, carb sets, and air bleed jets on a test stand? I doubt it.

 

[wilde1j]

Re: Ethanol

""The generally accepted formula for gasoline is C8H18, no oxygen."

I don't know what C8C18 is explicitly, but most gasolines in the US are mixtures of up to 25 or so compounds. I know this, because I sold blending equipment to a number of refiners specifically for gasoline blending, as well as lube oil blending, etc. You cannot represent gasoline by any single compound.