Ethonol-hows it hurt??

georgiaboy

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
148
what exactly does the ethonol hurt in your engine- I know it causes some water in the fuel but what real damage does it do? What is the best product to avoid this water condensation getting into the gas if there is one?
 

ezeke

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
12,532
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

A good list of threads on the subject is available at the BoatUS.com site:

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp

The primary concern with water in the fuel is that petroleum products float on water, so that the water eventually goes to the low-point of the tank - where the fuel pickup is located.

The best defense is a full-sized water-separating fuel filter. They work on gravity so they need a stable, fixed mounting position.

BTW, fuel stabilizers need to be added when the fuel is fresh, especially when pre-mixed.
 

tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

also if you have old fuel lines, replace with alcohol resistant lines.
 

Tim Frank

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,346
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

This is an excellent thumbnail from Canadian Yachting magazine and is available on line, so I believe that as long as they are credited, this is OK to post.
If not....I guess it will be pulled by a Mod and i'll get a 2x4 across the back of the head....:)

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In both California and now in Florida, class action suits have been launched against gasoline companies alleging that they knowingly sold gasoline to boaters containing ethanol and that the ethanol would attack and damage the fibreglass fuel tanks in older boats. ?I would estimate that 90% of our service calls this summer related to fuel system problems of one kind or another,? I was told by Shawn Ireland at Lakeline Lodge and Marina, a Yamaha dealer and the only service facility on Charleston Lake in Athens, Ontario. I was talking to Shawn because my own little Whaler was disabled twice during the summer and, in both cases, a sticking needle valve in the 20 horsepower outboard had to be freed up. Then, the engine ran perfectly. The problems occurred after the boat had not been run in a week or longer. Probably, old gum or varnish was being dislodged by the solvent effects of the ethanol and dispersants also used in the fuel.

As we all haul our boats out and store them for the long winter, it?s certainly worthwhile to revisit the ethanol issue because things seem to be getting worse, not better.

We went to several of the top tech experts on this matter and we will share with you their best recommendations.

But first, we need to better understand the problem.

Tetraethyl lead was long used as an octane booster in gasoline but has been banned due to environmental problems. To replace that lost octane boost, oxygenated fuels were introduced and they usually contain either ethyl alcohol (ethanol) or methyltertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE). MTBE, too, raised environmental concerns so now ethanol has become the commonplace solution. Remember: Gasoline is formulated for your car or truck ? NOT for marine use.

Your vehicle burns a tank of fuel in a short period of time and vehicles have long been equipped with closed fuel systems that minimize evaporation and deliver fuel under pressure to fuel injectors. Fuel dispersants like detergent are added to help keep fuel injector nozzles clean. Little air enters the system.

Your boat is completely opposite; marine fuel systems are vented to the air because fuel must be drawn into the engine under a vacuum. It?s a safety feature. Should a hose come loose or the fuel system develop a leak, gasoline stops running. Otherwise, you could find yourself at the helm of a 36-foot hibatchi!

We can divide the ethanol fuel problems into two general areas: operating problems and tank problems.

The operating problems seem to come from gum, varnish and debris from fuel system hoses and parts that the ethanol has attacked. The most dramatic operating problem occurs when a blob of water and ethanol gets sucked into the carburetor, causing the engine to stop or stall. These blobs are a result of ?phase separation?.

Since ethanol and water readily dissolve in each other, when ethanol is used as an additive in gasoline, water will actually dissolve in the blended fuel to a much greater extent than in conventional gasoline. When the water reaches the maximum amount that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will separate from the gasoline.

The amount of water required (in percent of the total volume) for this phase separation to take place varies with temperature, but as an example, at 60 degrees F, water can be absorbed by a blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol up to a content of 0.5 volume percent before it will phase separate. This means that approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water can be dissolved per gallon of the fuel before the water will begin to phase separate.

We realize that many Canadian Yachting readers have diesel engines in your sail and powerboats but the ethanol problem affects you if you have a dinghy or tender with a small outboard. Actually, those engines are more exposed to the ethanol issue because most dinghies are stored for long periods of time between uses.

Things get worse again if that little engine is a key part of your safety gear.

Water can enter ethanol-enhanced gasoline either directly (like rain water running off and splashing into a fuel vent ? think of vented cap on a portable 5-gallon fuel tank) or through moisture being absorbed from the air, especially during daily temperature changes when condensation occurs.
To get more than 3.8 teaspoons into the bottom gallon of fuel in your outboard?s portable tank might not take many cool fall nights.

Water as a separate phase, can have a major effect on two-stroke outboard engines because when the ethanol bonds with the water and drops out of the gasoline, the effective octane rating is decreased. Also, in the case of two-stroke engines, this water-ethanol phase will compete with the blended oil for bonding to the metal engine parts. Therefore, the engine will not have enough lubrication and engine damage may result.

In the case of four-stroke gasoline engines, the water-ethanol phase may combust in the engine. This combustion can be damaging to the engine because the water ethanol phase creates a leaner combustion mixture (i.e., air to fuel ratio is higher than ideal). Leaner mixtures tend to combust at higher temperatures and can damage engines, particularly those without sensors to calibrate air to fuel ratios.

So What Do You Do?

? Check with your marina or gasoline retailer. Some retailers, like Ontario area Shell stations sell Shell V-Power Premium and the pump is clearly marked ?Contains No Ethanol?. If you can be sure your fuel has no ethanol, you have no problem.
? If your boat has a fiberglass fuel tank; ethanol is known to chemically react with many fibreglass fuel tanks. They can deteriorate and potentially fail causing both serious engine damage and potential fuel leaks. Unless your boat's manufacturer can confirm that your fibreglass tank was built to withstand ethanol, over the winter, replace the tank with a non-reactive material such as aluminum.
? Always use fuel stabilizer. For any stored gasoline, it's important to add a stabilizer. Also, several engine manufacturers now recommend adding a ?maintenance? level of stabilizer in every tank. However, stabilizers do not prevent phase separation. Once it occurs, additives and water separators can't help. The only remedy is to have the gas and ethanol/water professionally removed from the tank.
? Before storage, run your boat for a time on stabilized fuel to best ensure that fresh, stable fuel is all that remains in the system over the winter.
? For boats with built-in fuel tanks, if possible, professionally drain and clean the tanks completely. We realize this is highly impractical though, so alternatively, add stabilizer and then almost fill the tank, leaving it with just a little room for expansion. A tank that is almost full limits the flow of air into and out of the vent, which reduces the chance of fluctuating temperatures adding condensation (water) to the fuel and thereby reducing chances of phase separation.
? If you have (or can change to) portable 5-gallon tanks, any unmixed gas (without 2-cycle oil) remaining may be carefully poured into your automobile gas tank and used. If you must store gas over the winter, keep the tank out of the sun and in a well-ventilated area away from ignition sources, keeping in mind that gasoline fumes are heavier than air.
? For all marine gasoline tanks, never try to plug up a fuel tank vent to prevent moist air from entering a tank. Without room to expand, the additional pressure could rupture fuel system components. Don?t block the vent with shrink wrap!
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
20,066
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

not only can ethanol absorb and retain moisture from the atmosphere its a very very good organic solvent as well.
the watery goo at the phase seperation line can and does become very acidic and can etch fuel bowls,vapor seperators and aluminium tanks.
it can and does dissovle most fiberglass resins,paints and rubbers.
as the water molecules are now part of a homogenous mix most standard fuel water seperators are rendered usless as now we cant use gravity and the natural repulsion of gas and water.
so far there has been many snake oils touting they can treat ethanol, I havent found one that actually does what it says.
we just got this E-10 crap last june.
while I complain I have made a killing repairing fuel systems,cutting out and replacing tanks and lines as well as dissolved floats for fuel senders.
E-10 can also affect nylon by making it swell as well as dissolving a number of vynil/poly fuel draw tubes.
it then collects in injector screens,high pressure pumps and valves and piston rings.
E-10 HAS TO BE AMONG THE GREATEST,COSTLIEST HOAX'S EVER PERPATRATED ON A US CITIZEN.
my 08 ranger had about 60 miles on it in april of 08,4wd,4.0 and 4.10 gears.
if I was careful 19MPG.
after june best I can milk is 17 MPG and its noticably down on power from new.
turned 12 k on saturday.
Ethanol belongs in my tumbler with Ice not in my fuel.
but I gotta ask, why is it the gas companies fault for adding something the govt that we elected mandated ??
 

Harker

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 21, 2003
Messages
452
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

I was blissfully ignorant of ethanol, thinking as long as it doesn't say ethanol on the pump that I was using pure gas. My brother in law, who sells oil and gasoline informed me last week that every drop of gasoline sold in the US has some alcohol in it....mandated by the government. They only have to notify you on the pump if its 10% or more. We talked about it for a while and he said yes, it causes more problems in marine applications just due to proximity of water. He recommends keeping taks as full as possible and making sure your cap is in good condition.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

It also cleans metal tanks. Those tiny pieces then travel thru the fuel delivery system and even with a 10 micron filter will end up in the injectors, VST tank or carb.

This past summer we had all sorts of issues. Guys were so down on power that some were buyibg smaller props to keep the rpm up. Hard starting and all sorts of wierd issues came up. One of the fuel companies admitted that they made a mistake measuring the blend. The sticker says "up to 10%" but we had as much as 40%. There were rumors of 50%. They now say it's back under control and the starting issues have eased up a bit.

At the Yamaha seminar they spent over an hour talking about ethanol. The bottom line was there's nothing that can be done now, learn to live with it and fix the motors accordingly. The issue will not go away anytime soon.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

E-10 HAS TO BE AMONG THE GREATEST,COSTLIEST HOAX'S EVER PERPATRATED ON A US CITIZEN.

Ya, that and "Global Warming"!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, that's another story! Well, maybe not, Global warming is one of the reasons we have the Ethanol in the fuel in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!

Leave it to the Government, they know what is best for us, just look at the economy if you don't beleive me!

Will I be poofed? I gave it my best walk the fence lines I know of!
 

wbeaton

Commander
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
2,332
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

Global warming is one of the reasons we have the Ethanol in the fuel in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, that's not entirely true. That's a common misconception. Call it propaganda. Its benefit to global warming is just one of the ways its being sold to the public now. Its not the reason for its use. In fact, its use was being hearlded well before Global Warming became a hot topic.

The real reason for its use is multifacited. One is its ability to increase lower quality grades of crude to higher more valueable grades of fuel. This is a serious benefit to Canadian petroleum producers since we have a huge reserve of low quality crude. Another is that the use of corn and other crops as fuel gives farmers another market and helps the agricultural and rural economies. A third reason is that intially only waste corn was used, which created a use and market for an otherwise waste product. And a fourth reason is that it was initially cheap.

I'll leave it at that since this is a boating forum. Just beware of anything that sounds too good.

Also, if anyone doesn't believe me or just plain disagrees, please don't post a bunch of flames. I'm an environmental professional and will gladly talk to you through PM's.
 

BSDenning

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
271
Re: Ethonol-hows it hurt??

Just the simple fact that the government had to mandate it automatically tells you that it is bad news. If adding ethynal to fuel was a good idea and people really wanted it, then private companies would have added the ethynal in order to make a better product and in turn, make more money.

Imagine if one oil company decided that it would be a good idea to blend 10% ethynal in their fuels. Then the free market would work. If people liked having the ethynal in their fuel, they would buy gas from that oil company. If people didn't like the ethynal (like anyone with an outboard boat motor), they would go buy fuel from the companies that didn't have ethynal.

I could go on all day on this issue, but as metioned above, this is a boating forum, so I'll keep it to a minimum. Almost any time you see a government mandate/intervention on private companies, expect bad results. There are always unintended consequences. There is your economic lesson for the day. :D
 
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