Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Thanks for the info Josip V.<br /><br />E-tech injection looks very similar to the electronic "split shot" injection that the newer diesels use. This technology has been out for several years and they're still trying to perfect it in diesels, which are much more forgiving with fuel injection than a 2-stroke gasoline engine. Then we have the spark thing. I hope it proves to work well, but I'm not holding my breath. I need a "sure thing" on the water.

 

[kenneths]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I guess our position here is to run the proven technology....watch the now "new" technology for a few years and see what happens??????<br />I seen in another post somewhere asking about the Merc X-series, and when they would be introduced in the smaller HP ranges....am I mistaken, or are those the ones that will never pass emisions (current) standings anyway...Pro-XB, or something like that????

 

[Mike Langianese]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

All good points regarding waiting until the bugs are worked out before buying any new or redesigned product. <br />I believe it uses a magneto starting system that will also run the fuel injection system so the engines can be started and run without a battery. To me this sounds like a great improvement over the competition regarding reliability when one is many miles out. The pistons and sleeves are made with a new alloy that NASA developed for the space program designed for high heat resistance and little ware. <br />All sounds good IF it works as advertised.<br /><br />Take all this with a grain of salt because I don’t know beans about outboards. I hope that my (new to me) 10-year-old engines will last a few more years before I have to replace them, from what I read and heard when it comes time I will be looking into the e-tec in detail. <br />After they have been on the market for a bit. <br /><br />Just my .02 maybe not worth even that.<br /><br />Mike

 

[miloman]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hi there. Interesting post. As a tourny fisherman I prefer to bolt the engine on and run with it. I need reliablility in an engine for the obvious reasons. That being said I moved form one engine manufacturer to Bombardier as a supplier and sponsor of my engines. Above all the primary reason was tha after talking to all the engeneering people there I came to the conclusion " they just get it" they understand how to build an engine and get it working. The majority of the information on this post is corect in reference to the technology, what wasnt mentioned was that they ran these engines to fail then fixed the problem ran it to fail redesigned it ran to fail, what i mean is that they didnt just build an engine and hoped it would work , they designed an engine that is basically bullet proof. I have driven it seen it saw all the specs and believe me talked a lot to the engineers there. All I can say is I look forward to it on my boat real soon. In my years of experience, i see this technology as being akin to through prop exhaust, a new invention. As for failure there are no issues there becasue they have made sure it is 100% bullet proof. Believe me if you do buy it it will be the best engine you have ever had. I stake my reputaion on it.<br /><br />On a side note I read Rod had said about careful testing ie with early Omc and opti produts. That was something Bombardier did a complete full circle here. They tested these engines under the most extreme conditions so that they would fail. As I sadi then they would pull it apart to see why it failed and fixed it. The conditiones they were testing under none of us would ever experience or maybe once in a lifetime we might

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Actually, the E-TEC injection system isn't new, it's a refinement of the 2nd generation FICHT that came out in late 1999 called FICHT Ram. The E-TEC injector still injects fuel using the same principals from the last 7 years as the original system, but it is much more precise and "shoots its load" quicker than the FICHT injectors. That is why the motors are 3 star rated by California.<br /><br />The rest of the motor uses bearings and rods from the 175hp engines and has the same bore and stroke. Next year all the motors from 40 thru 250 and above will use the same pistons.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Hello<br /> the ficht and optipmax were both well tested by the so called Tourney fishers. I have delt with variuos programs and fishing guides most of which dont have to actually buy the motor and make all the payments on the 12 thousand dollar package and keep it good bad or indifferent whether it works or not. both merc and OMC used the bass fishing and billfishing guys a lot for testing. they just forgot the average joe fisher dude uses his motor a lot different. all I say is we got burned on the first set of DFI technology. dont burn me again. if you dont believe me take your optipop or blown HPDI or FICT in for the second or third powerhead and see how much factory cooperation your dealer gets.<br /> good luck and keep posting.<br />and remember I can almost do an overhaul on a crossflow V4 for almost what an ECU costs for a FICHT RAM.

 

[miloman]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

rodbolt I am one of those guys who tested opti's and first generation ficht engines. MOst in the know knew then that both engines would have durability issues, myself included. OMC was on the way out and mercury well what can I say there right. We do use our engines alot harder then the average Joe we virtually destroy them, sure we dont pay for them but remember an engine not working can cost us thousands upon thousands, it reliability was a major reason why I switched. In a season I can easily put 300 hours on an engine. Bombardier for the most part has resolved the issues with Ficht, most can agree on that, and I assure you that the new etec engine is 100% reliable technology, If I were to purchase an engine it would be my first choice hands down. In fact I think that you will see less then 2% of all etec engines in a shop for warranty service. Your point on the overhaul of a cross flow v4 is very correct, 100% but thats not the point here, I think the discussion is how reliable this technology will be. I also believe that there will be dealer hiccups in regards to service, it takes time to get al the dealers up to spec, but other then that, it is a great product.

 

[kenneths]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

miloman, good to see ya still around!!!<br /> Did we get plenty of Christmas present money this summer????? Hope so!<br /> All Seelhoff wants to do is hunt coyotes now (reflecting on the season)...<br />Good to see you back!<br />Walleyehed

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hello<br /> 300 hours a season? I have customers that will do 30 to 60 hours a week ten months a year<br /> I need engines that make more than 8oo hours at a time. its tough to tell some one you need 2 powerheads a year. I have some carbed OMC and yammis with over 10,000 gallons of fuel reciepts that just run and run and run. I have seen carbed engines with over 3000 hours still crabbing fishing and playing. that is what I mean about durability. how is this going to be in 5 seasons. the payments will still be there. will the engine??<br />that is my only issue. most of my customers cannot afford a 13-15 thousand dollar motor every other year some cant do a 7 thousand dollar one everyother year. all I say is the outboards should have to play by the same rules as the autos. to many time Iwatched the customer lose the entire season while factory reps and dealers played the whos is gonna pay game. once we lose a customer and he quits boating out of disgust not only did we lose him/her we lost that family and all the following generations. I cannot understand why boat/motor maanufactures cannot grasp such a simple concept. when we had program motors those guys came by after every fishing trip for a look over and tweaking at no cost to them. not many average joe fishers get that kind of service.<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[kenneths]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

miloman, I'm guessing here, but isn't 300 hrs a whole bunch on the conservative side?????<br /> Ron ran his last Merc 2 yrs., just because he liked it the way it was, and put almost 1300hrs on it-2yrs.<br /> I'm running about 250 by the 4th of july, and end up 400-450 by Nov. 1st....you misstated your hrs, I'm sure............

 

[BillP]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

My guess is most people do way less than 300 hrs a year on their ob boats. That's 5+ hrs every weekend for 50 weekends a year and probably not at max rpm like a bass tourney guy either. <br /><br />I think boaters (non commerical guys)who are putting 30-60 hrs a week on their OB rigs are extremely rare...and probably doing a lot of trolling. Even the retired guys living on the water down here in Florida with 365 days a year boating weather don't run their OBs that much. 3000 hrs a year is more than most commercial guys run OBs down here too. At trolling speeds you will never burn a piston or cook a motor either.

 

[RatFish]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

miloman said,<br /><br />

...they designed an engine that is basically bullet proof.

As for failure there are no issues there becasue they have made sure it is 100% bullet proof.

I assure you that the new etec engine is 100% reliable technology

I see you feel very positive about the e-tec engine. That's great but do you have any cold hard "published" test results to back your claims? <br /><br />I would never spend big time cash on someones "gut" feeling.

 

[miloman]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

Kenny I stand corrected sorry I missed a 0. Sorry as for cold hard publised test results. I have seen them with my own two eyes. can I share, no I cant sorry about that. Listen there is not an engine in the world currently made that with long term extreme use isnt going to need maintence. That being said im sure etec will need the same. As for bullet proof there are etecs with 10,000 hrs on them in test facilities and Bombardier has a simple method to this madness, test them and run them until failure, then ri[p them apart and do the same over and over again in past with omc and mercury it was test under very specific rules and test to pass, Bombardier is about face on that, they really drove this engine into the ground and I believe worked out ever single kink. As for reliability and a reference made to the car industry, is there a car company offering a 3 to 5 year warranty, with unlimited miles, well in esence that is what is offered by most marine engine manufactures. You are right people are nervous about spending thousands on an engine platform that isnt hasnt been in the consumer market place, I do understand that one. It a good engine enough said on this. Kenny yup I had a great year this year on all the circuits and yuppers Santa is sure going to enjoy my home .

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

hello<br /> BillP<br /> I gotta take exception here. low speed is what is killing the DFI motors. I dont see any failures with the guys that keep the tachs above 4500 rpm. 2 strokes like to run doesnot matter if its carb.efi or dfi. they dont like low speed. most my optimax and HPDI customers always complain about problems after trolling for 4 or 5 hours. just like the FICHT guys would troll at 1600 or so then smoke a piston. on tear down all the above engines would be so coked and sooted up the rings would not come off the pistons.most Tuna and billfishers will troll along for hours dragging 4-10 lines with teasers, umbrellas and various other weired things. I have seen tech reps tell customers just reel in the lines and wind the motor up for 10 min every 30 min. hahahahah<br /> have you ever deployed teasers and umbrellas then 4 rods> it takes an hour to get all the gear out. what they should have done is study how the consumer was going to use the motor. not the guy that was going to fish with it for a few months then trade it for another new model. I think the motor companies should have perfected this technology with smaller engines first. good luck and keep posting<br />here its a 40 to 65 mile run to the fishing hole then troll 4to 6 hours then throttle up and haul boogie for the inlet before dark.

 

[RatFish]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

miloman,<br /><br />I don't dispute what you are saying. I'm sure you have seen and witnessed some great test results with the e-tec (10,000 hours excellent!) but I'm with rodbolt on this one. Here's why... <br /><br />There is no better overall test than releasing a product on the general public. I have seen it over and over in many different industries and the marine industry is no exception. There are engineering problems and/or production problems that can cause a product to fail. A good example is the auto industry. I bought a new 1986 Toyota that had a bad head gasket after the warranty period expired. Toyota admitted that they had a manufacturing defect in the head gasket and unlike the marine industry replaced it for free. Cars have been manufactured for decades but cars from different manufacturers are recalled all the time. I just heard tonight that Ford Windstars are being recalled because of a poorly designed latch in the rear seat (engineering flaw). Chrysler is recalling 10,000 Pacifica's for loose fuel line connections (production problem).<br /><br />These problems were not discovered in the test prototypes, they were discovered in the production models that were let loose on the general public.<br /><br />I'm sure the e-tec engine is a fine product and will prove itself over time but I would rather wait and see if any hidden design or production problems surface. Again I'm back to the old adage... "Not on my dime".

 

[Forktail]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

First let me say that if any manufacturer is going to put an outboard through pre-production riggers, it will be Bombardier. I have great respect for their other products, which have been above the rest in reliability and durability. I also have respect for their service commitment when things go wrong. They tend to take care of it.<br /><br />However, they are new to the outboard industry. They have new technology. New dealers. New service hurdles. Different and new consumer base. I don't see them jumping in with all this and being #1, at least not right off.<br /><br />See, we really don't know. And we won't for a few years. Until then I'm not willing to be a guinea pig. I have no reason to. I've got a set of F115's with 3000 hours on them that have been trouble free. Zip problems. Saved my butt more than once.<br /><br />The question is....do you want a sure thing, proven, tried, and true. Or do you want to take a gamble, putting total trust in optimistic promises?<br /><br />IMO, a great warranty, great dealer support, and all the promises in the world won't get your boat back to the harbor in times of need. Your outboards failing should be the last thing on your mind when your running white water trying to keep the bow up, the stern dry, and the keel down.<br /><br />When the E-tech earns its spot as #1, then I'll have them on my boats. I like having the best. Until then, I know exactly what to expect out of my Yamaha 4-strokes....and they know what to expect out of me.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

yep thats whay I am talking about. all the sales hype and BS in the world aint worth a tinkers butt 60 miles east of Oregon Inlet.<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[BillP]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

rodbolt,<br />I hear ya on the coked motors but you are using motors with fuel delivery systems that are known to be plagued with problems and saying that is normal. Those are maybe .000000001% of all the outboards out there that will get coked up in a few hours or running. The slower a motor runs the longer it generally lasts is the rule, not the exception. You know that. Beside, if the motors are known to get coked up so fast then maintence should be changed...engineering, frequent decarbing, leaner mixtures, hotter/colder plugs, oil, etc.. <br />Regardless, I agree that history is better than advertising hype.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

I run my 120 at 48-5000 anywhere I go and have since I put a piston in it in 1995. 2 strokes like to go. run them. they are not 4 strokes they rely on the incoming fuel and the piston rings to cool the piston. 4 strokes on the other hand rely on the rings and the oil splasehed under the piston. needle bearings and piston rings dont wear like a four stroke. DFI has a tendancy to coke up at low(below 2500) rpms. its rare to see a blown DFI that never trolls and is run at or near its rated RPM. I have pulled some apart that looked like the soot from an oxy/acetylene torch sans oxy. just fluffy black nasty with stuck rings.<br /> my only worry is telling the guy his 13k motor that he is paying for is blown up and he is stuck. I am sick of doing that. so we try not to sell many DFI engines anymore.

 

[RatFish]

Re: Evinrude e-tec or Yamaha 4 Stroke

So rodbolt, you like a 4 stroke over a 2 stroke?