Exhaust riser water in oil?

[ckraker]

Trying to simplify what became a confusing post. Rebuilt 4.3 1989. Ran for only 15 minutes total. Heads and block were checked for cracks by engine shop. I have water in my oil already. Pulled intake and cannot find anything that looks like a leak. Pulled the exhaust riser and they looked pretty bad.... I heard two theory's... Some say water will not get into oil from the risers, others say it's possible. My brain tells it's not likely but i really want to believe it's possible because i don't want to pull the heads AGAIN! Any other tips on how to locate the problem? I'm running out of ideas you guys have helped me a ton in the past.... Thanks in advance.

 

[Bt Doctur]

Sounds like a crack was missed or a mis-installed head , wrong torque, incorrect bolt pattern, incorrect step tightening

 

[Rick Stephens]

Cap off the hoses to the manifolds and the in line from the transom and pressure test the cooling system. 15#, should hold pressure indefinitely.

 

[Lou C]

Did you have water in a cyl from bad exhaust elbows or gaskets? I’d check the plugs for signs of rust & water. If you remove the manifolds you will see rust trails in the exhaust ports that mate up to the cyl head exhaust ports if this has been happening. You can also replace your manifold feed hoses with clear hose temporarily to check for air in the cooling water; do this with the boat in the water and engine warmed up (stat open) for a valid test. This will tell you if combustion gas is leaking from a cracked cyl head or leaky head gasket. Alternatively you can drain the water out of the engine and air pressure test the cooling system to see if it holds pressure. I would not take anything apart till you do diagnostics. Which head gaskets did you use? Did you clean the threads of the cyl head bolts and the threads of the cyl head bolt holes in the block? I replaced my old head bolts with ARP bolts and used a thread chaser to clean the bolt holes in the block. The cleaning part of this job took a while! Used Fel Pro Marine head gaskets.
If you had leaks from the exhaust that can put water in the oil, so can a bad intake gasket or bad head gasket. Certain HG leaks will put water right in a cyl. I had this with mine...did the tests...air in the cooling water...took it apart to find both HGs blown (previous overheat 3 seasons before) and the machine shop found both heads had cracks in the center cyls exhaust seat area. So I installed a set of re man heads etc. Worked out well.

 

[ckraker]

Well... let see if i can hit all the comments.
yes I used Felpro Marine gaskets.
Tracing rust is not going to work, the engine is esentially new, so it hasn't even had time to form rust. I did pull the plugs and they were all dry.
Head torqued according Manual specifications with the fancy pattern followed. (NO sealant of any kind used on the Head gasket)
I used Permatex Avaition on the head bolt threads for a sealer.
I did a compression check and each cylinder was at 180.
I guess my next step is to pressurize the system, but I'll have to wait for my new gaskets to arrive, as I have already pulled to intake in hopes of finding a flaw there.
I'm still just hoping I had some water get into an exhaust valve from the riser, but i still doubt that as I had no hydro lock symptoms.
I'll keep you posted when I find something out.
Thanks

 

[Scott Danforth]

if your compression is at 180, check your gauge. anything over 150 would be suspect such as bad gauge or water in the cylinders

if the riser/elbow gasket leaks, the water runs down the exhaust and into the cylinders.

 

[ckraker]

I agree about the 180--- it's high. could possibly be the gauge, but they are all consistently there. Not water though, I did compression check with NO water in the block whatsoever. About the water from the exhaust.... lets theorize... I know how water gets into the cylinder....but from there, how would it ever get past the piston/rings. they are able to hold 150 psi. and I have seen water sit on top of a piston for substantial amounts of time. Trust me I want badly to believe that water came through the riser past the exhaust valve past my piston and into my crankcase. That would be an easy cheap fix for me. But I just can't see how that water is getting past those pistons.
thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Rick Stephens]

Your pistons and rings don't 'hold' 150 PSI, they compress to a max of 150 PSI. The rings are not a full seal and if they stop at the top, the compressed air will leak down past the rings. Water will always drip down past the rings, eventually. My issue with your events is that water doesn't easily go from exhaust to cylinders past rings in a short time. If you fill a cylinder with water and leave it for a week, most of it will be in the pan.

If I understood your original description of events, you ran the boat, had problems, and when you checked the oil it had water mixed in it. That would indicate a catastrophic gasket failure or a crack.

 

[ckraker]

​ I re installed the intake manifold and pressurized the engine cooling system. It holds 15 psi for about an hour. Look closer at the photo, soapy water is showing small leaks on all four water passages. You may also notice that my intake is the aluminum 2111 aftermarket version. I didn't use any gasket sealer on these. Should i? And if so what? Second. I torqued the bolts to 25 ft lbs according to edelbrock instructions. This is double what is recommended for stock intake.
Let me know your thoughts.
​​​​​​​Thanks

 

[Lou C]

If I recall the torque setting for the pre-vortec cast iron intake is 30 ft lbs, that's what I torqued mine to when I replaced the heads etc. The Vortec intake is torqued to a much lower setting. I could see the aluminum intake requiring a lower torque setting. I used a bit of Permatex aviation on the water passage areas on the intake gaskets, torqued the (iron) intake to 30 ft lbs and did not have any leaks. I wonder if there was too much clearance between the cyl heads and the intake? Sometimes if the heads are milled that can happen due to change in angles and how the intake sits in the V between the heads...

PS I just looked up the instructions, they do recommend using a sealer on the gaskets....you used theirs or Fel Pro?

from their instructions:


• GASKETS AND SEALANT CAUTION: Do not use high performance or competition-type intake gaskets for street application. Due to material deterioration under street driving conditions, internal leakage of both vacuum and oil may occur. 1. Use only O.E.M.or equivalent gaskets when installing Edelbrock manifolds for street applications.
2. Apply Edelbrock Gasgacinch sealant,#9300,to both sides of the manifold as well as head surfaces.This procedure ensures a good seal.
3. We advise eliminating the end seals. Use RTV Silicone instead. Apply a bead of sealant approximately 1/4" high across the block end seal surface, overlapping the intake gasket at the four corners. This method eliminates end seal slippage and deterioration.
• MANIFOLD TORQUE —Torque all bolts circled in Figure #1 to 25 ft./lbs. See Figure #1 for proper sequence.

 

[ckraker]

I used the felpro marine gaskets. The side facing the block is black, the intake side had that blue ring of sealant built into the gasket. I might try some copper spray gaskets or permatex aviation, when i try again. Even though I'm pretty sure it's ill advised. Unless you guys talk me out of it.

I did have the block and heads machined but... They told me d I'd still be okay for clearance.

One last thing 30 seems TIGHT for a 3/8 bolt, doesn't it?

Thanks guys