FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

gpolson · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Historical Comments on TC-W3 I webmaster RBBI.Com and in the early days of the graphics (HTML) Internet I captured a hundred or so comments on this topic from the rec.boats newsgroup. They date back to 1995. Thought you might find them interesting. It begins with some ranting comments I made about the need for manufacturers (including OMC at that time) to justify their premium pricing (I dont remember being that worked up about it). My ranting is followed by links to several large groups of messages on TC-W3 oil. Is at: http://www.rbbi.com/folders/recb/recb.htm#oil Sounds like not a lot has changed since then.

BillP · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

I'm responding with the comments below but don't take it as a personal snip...it isn't meant that way. I'm sure some of your statements are unintentionally biased but some against TCW-III oils are without basis or are exceptions to the rule. TC-W3® oils are licensed around the world and are recommended for use by two cycle engine manufacturers. ***It could be written that virtually every water cooled ob mfg specifies TCW-III oil for use in their motors...and VERY few recommend non TCW-III oils in water cooled engines. Some use the cheapest one they can buy and decarb often with decent results, There have been some tests done by a few members of the forum on the cheaper oils with less than desirable results. ***There are many users who see great results with cheap oil and don't decarb so the statement of "less desirable results" is highly opinionated. It implies problems are normal with low price TCW-III oil. Maybe a statement that says it is logical to think cheap oil will have less quality and using it may, but not always, require higher frequencies on decarbing and plug changes. It should be noted that decarbing is recommended with any all oils (pet or synthetic)to remove deposits left from the fuel. TC-W3 is a ten year old Specification, and outboards are changing all the time, what with E-tech and fuel injection demanding better lubricants. ***My understanding, not debating, is the problems are more related to viscosity for better injector metering than being a "better lubricant". You are implying the TCW-III does not meet the mfgs requirements. Does TCW-III meet the written specs for E-tech and FI engines? A more accurate statement may say "Modern engines are reported by some owners to run better with oils developed specifically for that technology. Those oils come in both TCW-III and oils without the certification. There are many outboard engines for which TC-W3 oil is not suitable. ***Follow that up with...Because air cooled oils are formulated differently to handle higher engine temps. Some DFI engine failures have been attributed to use of TC-W3 oil rather than the oil required by the warranty. ***That statement doesn't make sense to me. It leads and implies TCW-III is not recommended or specified by the mfg. How many DFI engines spec non TCW-III oil verses ones who do spec TCW-III? Are there any DFI motors that say TCW-III does not meet the warranty? I think the implication is based on exceptions, not norms.

JB · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Let's forget the synthetic vs. petro oil argument, guys. Among oils suitable for non-DFI 2 strokes there is not agreement on what is "best". So leave out attempts to specify what is best. ALL outboard oils on the market for those engines meet or exceed the requirements of the NMMA TC-W3 specifications. That makes them ALL suitable for use in those engines. That is a fact. It is also a fact that makers of blended and fully synthetic oils make various claims of superior performance. While it is true that many users of those oils are very satisfied with them, it is also true that many users of "house" branded oils blended by leading oil producers are just as happy and tout their favorites just as energetically. Two contradicting facts. Leave both out. Taking either side of that argument would interfere with the credibility of the article. Opinions that are controversial do not belong in technical writing.

BillP · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

JB, I agree 100%.

kenimpzoom · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Perhaps a seperate FAQ on Dino vs Synthetic oils should be made with a warning that opinions are stated, not actual fact. This whole thing got me thinking (maybe better in a seperate post). They have tests they can run to determine how well a lube works. Why they heck dont they publish those results on the side of the bottle of lube you buy? Instead of just making vague claims. Ken

LubeDude · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Originally posted by BillP: TC-W3® oils are licensed around the world and are recommended for use by two cycle engine manufacturers. [/i]

Thanks Bill, you had some good requests and some changes were made. This statement came right from the NMMA site.

LubeDude · Apr 1, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Trent, Ive seen that artical and it has no bearing on 2 Cycle oils. Also, this was nearly ten years ago, I think all the synthetic manufactures have come a ways sence then. Who knows exactly why this oil performed badly?

james082273 · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Here is a little more fuel to add to the fire reguarding when and when not to use a TC-W3 oil...my brand new 2-stroke Lawn Boy (air cooled lawn mower) calls for a 32 to 1 mixture of TC-W3

. With that being said the blanket statement that TC-W3 is only for water cooled engines and should never be used in air cooled is incorrect. So I would have to say it depends more on the engine itself than just is it air/water cooled. This is a draft for a FAQ section right? I'm not knocking the post just suggesting maybe a rewording

. This is the statement I am referring: "Air cooled outboards should use oil intended for air cooled engines, chain saw oil or "Weed Eater" oils, for example." This doesn't really say anything about relying on what the manufacturer recommends but only what type engine you may have. Edited to include quote.....

JB · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Well, yes, Jon Boater. It would be, but no such statement has been included. Manufacturers recommendations should always be considered, and manufacturers REQUIREMENTS never violated.

Forktail · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

What oil should I use? What about synthetics?

So far I fail to find the basics of this FAQ...like the different types of oil and oil technologies, and their effects on different engine technology. It would be hard to make a decision, or perform any testing without these basics. For example: TC-W3 oils come in many forms. Some are strictly petroleum based, with base stock categories containing group II or group III base stocks, or combinations (blends) thereof. Other TC-W3 oils are petroleum and synthetic blended. But "synthetic" here can mean either petroleum based synthetic or poly-alpha-olefin synthetics. So they could be a petroleum and petroleum-synthetic blend, or a petroleum and PAO blend. Then we have strictly PAO based synthetic TC-W3's. People have different outboards, which require different TC-W3 oils. I have said it before that some outboards perform better with a petroleum based TC-W3, some perform better with a synthetic blend TC-W3, and others perform better with a 100% PAO TC-W3. Yes, they are all TC-W3. But substitution and interchangeability isn't always best, as much depends on the outboard's individual combustion characteristics. It could even be broken down into how the same engine is used (racing vs. trolling, etc.) Also there is talk about "more additives" and formulations, etc., but no basics on what particular additives perform what particular task, etc. If iboats is going to provide a FAQ about what oil people should use in their outboard, then that FAQ should include some basics of which the "FAQ's" are based. TC-W3 oils should be broken down into which technology of TC-W3. Synthetics and non-TC-W3 oils should be broken down too. And the different types of outboard technology with their combustion characteristics should be broken down. Uses (trolling vs. racing) could be broken down as well. An explanation of additives and what oil technologies contain them should be explained. I find that most of LubeDude's information given above is verbatim off the internet. I feel he should reference his material. I also feel LubeDude should post his credentials so we can determine if he is qualified to write a FAQ. Is he a petroleum engineer? Has he worked developing, refining, or formulating oils? Prior posts by him have shown to be extremely biased toward synthetic oils, and some of his "facts" have left much to be desired. I am not attacking him personally, but even the moderators have commented on this, and I believe people reading a FAQ deserve a full education. It is commendable that LubeDude has taken on the task of an oil FAQ. But he has volunteered to take on this task....a task that not only remains subjective, but also requires a huge amount of experience and back-up.

18rabbit · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

LD you're doing good stuff!!!

Suggestion: you dont have to defend your faq. Write it as a response to frequently asked questions and let it go at that. Also, you do not need to respond to any suggestions. Definitely review the suggestion for content to see if it is something that appeals to you, and go from there. Thanks, LD!!!

JB · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Shaping up very nicely, LD. I don't see any more bias in it and I see a lot of good advice for the kind of boater who asks that question here. Forktail makes an interesting point, but I don't think a detailed scientific dissertation is going to help Joe Boater. It might even cause him to throw up his hands and ask his wanna-be-expert neighbor and end up using God knows what at some obscene ratio. He wants a simple answer band-aid, not detailed scientific analysis brain surgery. I do suggest that you de-generalize the recommendation of TC-W3 and limit it to those engines for which it is the required choice. On the DFI engines, emphasize that some REQUIRE a particular oil that is beyond TC-W3 specs. The user must know and follow warranty requirements. Doing good. Keep at it.

LubeDude · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Thanks JB, My thoughts exactly. I will be the first to admit to copy and pasting some information here, but so what!! The Idea is to inform, not to show Im some genius and know everything about oil, I never said that I was. I just saw a need and volunteered to fill it. JB was open to it and ask me to go ahead with it. If he would have thought me unqualified, Im sure he would have said so. Thanks to those who have supported me in this venture, and others who have contributed. I think we are winding down.

Forktail · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Shaping up very nicely, LD.

Look guys, I'm not attacking you personally or trying to be counter-productive....but what exactly is shaping up? What about this "FAQ" is everyone raving about?

If I've got a 8-10 year old 2-stroke that requires TC-W3 oil, I'm no more closer to knowing "what oil I should use" than I was when I bought it. Do I use cheapo TC-W3 or a PAO TC-W3? And why? Even if I bought a brand new 2-stroke, this "FAQ" leaves me no more closer to knowing what oil to run in it. No meat and potatoes here.

What oil should I use in my outboard?

Without some meat and potatoes, this is like asking, "which car is best for me?" or, "what cooking oil do I cook my fish in?". IMO, and from past discussion on this topic here, the whole issue is a bait. Either way it appears to be a question left entirely up to the interpretation of the FAQ writer(s). It would only be a factual answer if it was answered by a qualified oil expert. References to the material copied and credentials to back up statements made would be a minimal. As far as I know, LubeDude is "Joe Boater" who just happens to sell a certain type of oil. Big difference.

By JB - On the DFI engines, emphasize that some REQUIRE a particular oil that is beyond TC-W3 specs. The user must know and follow warranty requirements.

Beyond TC-W3 specs?

This is a prime example of what I'm saying here. DFI oils don't always work as well in some 2-strokes as basic TC-W3 oils will. I've discussed this before. It has to do with different combustion temperatures. Suggesting that DFI oils exceed the specs of TC-W3 is incorrect. DFI oils simply have a different specification for a different application. They are not always interchangeable, in either direction. This is the tip of the iceberg. No JB, understanding oils isn't "brain surgery". But contrary to what you say, there are no simple "band-aid answers" for "Joe Boater". As you know from some of my older posts, I have some petroleum engineering experience. I can tell you that a quest for oil knowledge, even for "Joe Boater" requires some "detailed scientific analysis". The rest is just fluff. I would still like to know what expertise, experience, or qualifications the writer of this FAQ has. I'm not being a jerk here, I just want to be able to evaluate the legitimacy of the material, since IMO LubeDude writes a lot of "fluff" or copies from the internet. Nothing personal LubeDude.

LubeDude · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

I had a discussion with JB before I started this, and was invited to do it, and told what the forum wanted. I cant discuss brands, and the subject material needed to be somewhat basic. (For Joe Blow Boater). We have asked for input on this FAQ, and you havnt given any other than complained about what is in it, and what right do I have in writing it. There really isnt any way to include what you want without naming brands and using personal testimonies, Other than that it will have a bunch of tehnical crap that knowone but you will understand. JB says I cant say one oil is better than another, or give opinions, besides, where would "YOU" find proof? This is your chance to participate by giving information that you think should be here, but you havnt given any. Give us something besides flack, and we will see what we can do. I have no problem rewriting the whole da*b thing if I need to, but give me what you want to see. Personally I think its long enough, but Im willing to make it two feet long if thats what is necesary to make everyone happy.

LubeDude · Apr 2, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Originally posted by Forktail: As you know from some of my older posts, I have some petroleum engineering experience. I can tell you that a quest for oil knowledge, even for "Joe Boater" requires some "detailed scientific analysis". .[/QB]

So give me some scientific analysis!

JB · Apr 3, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

I think Forky is correct on a couple of points, here. It would not be a good idea to label DFI oils as "beyond" TC-W3. As he says, they are simpoly made to a different spec., but it is important that DFI users know that their engine may REQUIRE a special oil. I also agree that the question could be compared to "What car is best for me?". There is no exactly precise answer without individualizing the answer to the extent that it is of no use to anyone except the individual it has been customized for. Therefore the word "best" is banned. Our FAQs should provide basic answers free of controversy, marketing claims, opinions or hype. Our FAQs should also be simple and short enough that Joe Boater will be willing to read it and will understand it. The most common result of having engineers write material for the end user to read and understand is that the end user is overwhelmed by the volume and detail and doesn't read it, making it useless. While we respect Forktail's knowledge of oils and other technologies, the specs for a FAQ are set for Joe Boater, not engineers. LubeDude's answers to oil questions (except for the bias toward particular brands and types) satisfy Joe Boater. The product of this project will include helpful suggestions from a variety of members, and is open to helpful contributions by Forktail. "You're doing it wrong!" is not a helpful contribution. "What TC-W3 oil is best for my carbed 2 stroke?" debates will continue in the forums and continue to confuse Joe Boater and feed egos and tempers. That is not going to happen in the FAQ section.

BillP · Apr 3, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

LubeDude, As Forktail mentioned, your credentials ARE important when writing articles like this. Where do you get data that says TCW-III is exceeded by other oils? Here's a statement that should have the scientific data that Forktail is talking about... Direct Injected 2 stroke outboards typically require oil intended for DI engines., an oil that actually exceeds the TC-W3 specification. Isn't "actually exceeds" speculation on your part? It hints of advertising from a certain non certified oil brand. Where does the info come from that says DI oils exceed TCW-III? Different speculation could be those oils actually CAN'T meet the TCW-III specs for reasons such as...the NMMA mandates (to meet their certification) that all oils must contain non-metallic detergent additives and no phosphorus or phosphates. Scientifically, oils meeting TCW-III are proven (by certification) to exceed non TCW-III oils for being environmentally friendly . Not a snip but OEM operators handbooks say that TCW-III is specified in DI engines (with very rare exceptions of J&E?). It doesn't make sense to say DI requires oil that exceeds TCW-III.

MajBach · Apr 3, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

OK, Im opening up this thread for suggestions,

As far as oils are concerned, I can be considered Joe Boater. But I am also fairly thorough about anything I buy, whether it be the outboard or the oil in it I pride myself on being an informed shopper. I very much appreciate it when someone takes the time to write such informative posts such as this one, you may have noticed I do the same when it is on a topic that I feel I have an above average knowledge. However, do not underestimate the detail that Joe boater can handle/require. I like specifics and would take the time to read deeper explanations of the facts you are addressing. I am not saying that I want or require you to quote your sources of info nor do I think cut and pasting info from various sources to create one large document on the subject is a bad thing either. However, your article carries as much (or as little) weight as any other article I would read, say in a magazine or journal or on another post. Just about every claim that is written can be argued to be opinion and not fact, especially when it is compiled by only one. The worlds two leading authorities on any one subject can strongly disagree on a one specific matter and each can have their own scientific evidence to back it up. So I personally dont feel the need to see graphs or pie charts to substantiate what you have stated. I am a pilot and can think of dozens dos and dont that I would tell a student but would not have and solid source of information to back it up; I may not even be able to demonstrate it. It simply comes from the combination of years of training, experience and talking to other pilots. How anyone decides whether or not to believe what they are being told depends pretty much entirely on what they know about the source that is telling it. When it comes from a single person and not an accredited publication (and sometime even then), I for one cannot accept opinion as fact until that person has demonstrated in some way a thorough knowledge of that which he claims to profess. One way of doing this is to counter those who would question or disagree with his statements. I do not take everything I read or hear as fact and I typically challenge those who claim to know ( and probably do ) in order to establish my own faith. A propos, do not mistake a counter or a question as to the source of your information as a downright disagreement to your claims. I wouldnt go so far as to say that I am no closer to choosing an oil after reading your post should I be in the market for it; indeed I did learn a few things. But I would appreciate it too if you went into more detail on certain matters. Not only does it establish you as a dependable source of info but it gives me more food for thought in order to form a informed conclusion. What are base oils and what are the differences? Not only within the 2-stroke application but compared to four strokes, automotive vs. marine, synthetic vs. organic. What are the different types of additives used in oils and what do they do? What additives do I need and how can I determine if any one particular oil contains them? Does TC-W3 apply only to 2 stroke oil? Is there a 4-stroke equivalent? What is ashless? Why is it a property of one oil and not another? What are the detriments of it? It may or may not benefit me to know the answers to these questions but nevertheless, I am interested. You dont have to answer them but my point is I would read it if you did, value and consider what I have read and consider you more of a reputable authority in the process.

Drowned Rat · Apr 3, 2004

Re: FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

Maybe this whole FAQ thread should read: "Follow your manufactures recommendations".

FAQ: What type oil should I use in my outboard?

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