Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

[fishKILLER1987]

I have finally began my summer project of restoring my 1978 Robalo 230. I was originally only going to fix a portion of the boat where it had been damaged in a hurricane. But, after a ton of research, and carefull examination of the hull, I think it would be best to go ahead and bite the bullet and do a solid ground-up restoration job.

The hull seems solid as a rock, and when I bounce up and down on the motor the transom doesnt budge an inch. However, if you look down at the transon from inside the boat it is easy to see that it bows outward from years of supporting a heavy motor. Also, one of the hooks on the corner of the transom has almost pulled through the outside of the hull which indicated rotten wood. This also leads me to believe that the stringers are rotten as well and will probably need to be replaced.

So, I figure if I'm willing to work this hard and sink a ton of money into this thing to get it on the water, then I should do things right the first time so that after all my hard work I dont end up spending another summer off the water because I didnt replace rotted wood when I should have.

This may sound crazy but after all my years of boating I've never really understood how things function on a boat underneath the deck.

Here are my questions:

1) Between the deck and the hull there are stringers and compartments for support. Within these compartments there is foam and of course wiring, a gas tank, ect... I was always under the impression that water should never get in this area between the hull and the deck. However, I am beginning to understand that water does from time to time get in this area and that is why there is a drainage system to help get rid of this unwanted water. But, isnt it bad for that foam under the deck to get wet? Does it ever dry once wet? If there is no way for water to seep into the boat from underneath, then how does water get into this area between the deck and hull?

2) On my boat I have a gigantic rectangle piece of deck that is under the seat and center console and is probably 15ft long X 4ft wide. It seems to be attached to the deck with screws and caulking. I would imagine that this is designed for the instance in which you have to service the gas tank. So, if I remove my seat and center console and pop this deck piece out, will it expose my stringers, foam, and hull bottom?

3) I also have small holes cut in the deck with a screw on cap. I would think that these are some kind of inspection device. But, when I uncap these holes all I see is a small section of gas tank. Are these inspection devices after all?

I know my posts can be pretty long sometimes but I'm full of questions. And it seems like the more I do to my boat the more questions I get.

Thanks in advance for any input. God knows I need all the help I can get.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Ayuh,...
1),... There's No such thing as a Waterproof Compartment,... Period...
The Best way to deal with the water that does get into the boat is to Drain it...
Well Drained,... The Foam has a reasonable lifetime...
Allowed to Soak,... It'll hold 100s of lbs. of Water,+ Rot the hull...
2),...Got Pictures,..?? does it look Original,..?? after all it's 30 years old...
3),... Ya, they're inspection ports..

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Bond-o,

The boat is pretty much all original aside from new electronics, a new seat, new T-Top, and a jack plate for the motor. As far as I know, there has been no structural work done to the boat aside from quick fix caulking jobs. I am almost possitive that the transom is in bad shape because there is a ton of caulking where I guess the previous owner tried to fill in the gap that was created by the weight of the motor actually pulling the transom away from the inner part of the hull.

I have no idea what condition the stringers are in but I'm willing to bet theyre are in just as bad shape as the transom if not worse. I have a feeling that the very front of the bow is holding water due to some kind of block in the drainage system below the deck. I know this because there is a small crack in the fiberglass on the bottom of the hull and even though I have the bow of the boat tilted up high enough to drain out any remaining water, there is constantly a steady drip from this crack on the bottom.

So, back to my original question. It is in fact ok and part of the general design of a boat that water can get between the deck and the hull and it simply drains out via the drainage system??

But wouldnt this cause any newly laid foam to soak up water as well?

Is this space between the deck and the hull what the bilge pump is design to pump out when its filled with water?

Also, I will post pics as soon as I can.

Thanks again for all the info.

 

[mattpyle]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Bond-o,

The boat is pretty much all original aside from new electronics, a new seat, new T-Top, and a jack plate for the motor. As far as I know, there has been no structural work done to the boat aside from quick fix caulking jobs. I am almost possitive that the transom is in bad shape because there is a ton of caulking where I guess the previous owner tried to fill in the gap that was created by the weight of the motor actually pulling the transom away from the inner part of the hull.

I have no idea what condition the stringers are in but I'm willing to bet theyre are in just as bad shape as the transom if not worse. I have a feeling that the very front of the bow is holding water due to some kind of block in the drainage system below the deck. I know this because there is a small crack in the fiberglass on the bottom of the hull and even though I have the bow of the boat tilted up high enough to drain out any remaining water, there is constantly a steady drip from this crack on the bottom.

So, back to my original question. It is in fact ok and part of the general design of a boat that water can get between the deck and the hull and it simply drains out via the drainage system??

But wouldnt this cause any newly laid foam to soak up water as well?

Is this space between the deck and the hull what the bilge pump is design to pump out when its filled with water?

Also, I will post pics as soon as I can.

Thanks again for all the info.

As long as the water is allowed to drain out, it won't soak into the foam. Foam begins to soak up the water when the water is just left sitting in there for years. Cut drain holes in your stringers and make a path for the water to get to the back, and you'll be fine.

Yes a bilge pump will pump out water that gets below the deck. It won't suck it completely dry...it's just used incase a lot of water gets under there (i.e. if you have a hole in the hull, you leave you're boat out in the rain, etc...).

If you build everything perfectly, then ya there really won't ever be much if any water below the deck. However that's pretty hard to do

 

[MTribe08]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

These pictures might help you somewhat. Bond-0 helped me out quite a bit with my project and I took his advice and made limber holes so I "hopefully" managedto drain any water that finds its way into the "normally" sealed off compartments under deck.

Here is a picture of my skeleton under the cockpit of my boat. You can see the different compartments outside of the fuel tank pit. Normally if water found its way in there, it just sits at the base of your stringers and eventually does damage, and gets into the foam and you know the rest.

Here is a picture that shows where I drilled 3 Limber holes on each side, so that water can drain into the fuel tank box and then back to the bilge. I also drilled large holes at the base of each side support, so it can freely drain.

In this picture you can see that I put back the old foam..mine was dry..but I cut the foam back about 2 inches from the stringer, to leave a channel for the water to run, and get to the holes.

Hope that helps. good luck.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

I have finally began my summer project of restoring my 1978 Robalo 230. I was originally only going to fix a portion of the boat where it had been damaged in a hurricane. But, after a ton of research, and carefull examination of the hull, I think it would be best to go ahead and bite the bullet and do a solid ground-up restoration job.

The hull seems solid as a rock, and when I bounce up and down on the motor the transom doesnt budge an inch. However, if you look down at the transon from inside the boat it is easy to see that it bows outward from years of supporting a heavy motor. Also, one of the hooks on the corner of the transom has almost pulled through the outside of the hull which indicated rotten wood. This also leads me to believe that the stringers are rotten as well and will probably need to be replaced.

So, I figure if I'm willing to work this hard and sink a ton of money into this thing to get it on the water, then I should do things right the first time so that after all my hard work I dont end up spending another summer off the water because I didnt replace rotted wood when I should have.

This may sound crazy but after all my years of boating I've never really understood how things function on a boat underneath the deck.

Here are my questions:

1) Between the deck and the hull there are stringers and compartments for support. Within these compartments there is foam and of course wiring, a gas tank, ect... I was always under the impression that water should never get in this area between the hull and the deck. However, I am beginning to understand that water does from time to time get in this area and that is why there is a drainage system to help get rid of this unwanted water. But, isnt it bad for that foam under the deck to get wet? Does it ever dry once wet? If there is no way for water to seep into the boat from underneath, then how does water get into this area between the deck and hull?

2) On my boat I have a gigantic rectangle piece of deck that is under the seat and center console and is probably 15ft long X 4ft wide. It seems to be attached to the deck with screws and caulking. I would imagine that this is designed for the instance in which you have to service the gas tank. So, if I remove my seat and center console and pop this deck piece out, will it expose my stringers, foam, and hull bottom?

3) I also have small holes cut in the deck with a screw on cap. I would think that these are some kind of inspection device. But, when I uncap these holes all I see is a small section of gas tank. Are these inspection devices after all?

I know my posts can be pretty long sometimes but I'm full of questions. And it seems like the more I do to my boat the more questions I get.

Thanks in advance for any input. God knows I need all the help I can get.

Someone has been under the deck already, either to install footers for the T-top or there were problems due to leaks from the T-top thru bolts.

If you decide to pop the cap, I would fix the hull side first or it will pull itself out of shape, the cap is holding it right now. A quick fix on the inside of the hull will hold until later. When the cap is removed the hull sides want to flop outward, thats not good.

Other than that, just get on with it, you'll never find out what shape its in until you get in there and inspect it close up.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Great info guys!

I was thinking that it would be easier to fix the side damage to the hull after the cap is pulled off but I can see now that might not be such a good idea considering that the hull shape is going to change quite a bit with the cap off. It seems that the only thing holding the cap on the hull are a number of screws. I would think that it would be better to fiberglass the cap to the hull. Should I go back with the screws when putting the cap back on the boat or should i fiberglass the two together??

Also, where is the best place to put batteries on your boat?

The previous owner of my boat kept both batteries in a side compartment towards the back of the boat where both batteries rested on the hull bottom. If water were to ever get into the hull, it would soak the batteries and all connecting wires. I cant help but wonder if there is a better place to store batteries on a boat.

Thanks again for all the info and pictures...keep the good info comming!!

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Great info guys!

I was thinking that it would be easier to fix the side damage to the hull after the cap is pulled off but I can see now that might not be such a good idea considering that the hull shape is going to change quite a bit with the cap off. It seems that the only thing holding the cap on the hull are a number of screws. I would think that it would be better to fiberglass the cap to the hull. Should I go back with the screws when putting the cap back on the boat or should i fiberglass the two together??

Also, where is the best place to put batteries on your boat?

The previous owner of my boat kept both batteries in a side compartment towards the back of the boat where both batteries rested on the hull bottom. If water were to ever get into the hull, it would soak the batteries and all connecting wires. I cant help but wonder if there is a better place to store batteries on a boat.

Thanks again for all the info and pictures...keep the good info comming!!

I have my engine battery fwd of the splashwell to one side in a battery box clamped to a hardwood plate thats bolted thru the deck, its mounted above deck. Second battery is mounted under the console and runs the house elecs, I like keeping it seperate in case the engine batt dies on me, I can swap them around physically in 5 minutes. They are not connected electrically, I use a charger on the house batt. Some guys carry an emerg jump pack and thats a great idea too.

Screws are not great for the cap to hull joint , they will always work loose.
Screws are just a bad idea in fiberglass period.
As you go along you'll find lots of bad ideas mfgers used.

Nuts and bolts with wood backing is a better idea, glassing the cap to the hull is the best way, use sealant on the joint first, stainless rivets to hold rub rail track then glass the joint from underneath when the sealant cures.
Access to the joint from underneath will dictate which approach to use.
If you can't get at it...ya can't do it.

My cap was loose at the transom.
I used PL between the cap and hull then went back with strips of glass on the outside and inside, access can be tricky, then I had to PL the rub rail alum track because all the screws were rotted out and the glass was beat.
I like PL because it gives ya 30 minutes to position things,
oh and its cheap.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Jonesg,

Man my whole cap was attachd by several very new looking wood screws. I can tell that was a bad idea because nearly all of them have worked loose and are now missing. Im going to take pics of where my cap meets the hull to show what im dealing with. I really want to go with glass to attach the cap to the hull but the way it is desgined im afraid I can only reach the joint where the two meet from the outside. Is it going to be a problem glassing the two together from the outside??

Also, I have a set of metal plates that act as trim tabs that are screwed directly into my transom on each side of the hull. I would like to keep these trim tabs but I have no idea how I can attach them to the transom without creating a future spot for water intrusion...Any idea???

Thanks again for all the info.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

If you can afford it, hydraulic trim tabs are slick, I see them on craigslist used for $300 often enough, the next best are the smart tabs, they are spring loaded.
Installed properly there is no water intrusion.
Smart tabs are cheap enough and easy to install.


If the only access for the hull/cap joint is outside I would give it some thought, get a variety of opinions and settle on the most practical for you.

2 ideas,
first, glass the outside with epoxy and glass tape.
Second , seal the cap to the hull with PL and thru nut/bolt the joint.
You can install hard mounting pads for the nut under the gunnel whilst the cap is off. Large alum fender washers or ply pads (sealed w/ resin).

It made a difference on my boat when I secured the cap with PL, it used to squeak when I walked on the deck, traced the noise to the loose cap.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Alright Jonesg,

So as soon as I got off work today I went straight to work on the boat. I began by remopving a section of the rectangle pieces that are cut out of my deck and this is what I found:

Here are a couple pics of the section that was taken out:

And I believe you can see my gas tank in this pic:

Well, this should give you an idea of what I'm up against. I would imagine that water has been sitting under the deck for quite some time...sure smells like it. Tomorrow I plan on continuing to pry this thing apart. I would like to get at least get the gas tank drained and out by the end of the day. By looking at this, I'm willing to be that the stringers are shot.

Opinions anybody??

Once again thank you for all the info and input. Please keep it comming.

Thanks.

 

[badkins50]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Yeah I would agree that water has been hanging around for a while. From the pics Id say there is a pretty good chance those stringers are soft. Only one way to find out. Grab the hammer, tap and listen. On an upside that boat will be saying thanks a million (aaaaahhhhhhhh) after she gets all that water and soaked foam off of her. Keep us posted. Good luck.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Is the bilge drain open? it shouldn't fill up like that...ever.
The tank area should drain out to the bilge and out the drain, plug is out right?

Time to put the major peices under cover to store for now,
pull the deck, hog the foam out and dispose it. Then you can check the stringers. If they were properly glassed and if they gelcoated...they "might" be ok. If not its only plywood ,resin and glass.

On mine what I did was de-rig the console, marked the wires, unscrew it from the deck and slide it forward for now. Whilst you're in there you ought to replumb the tank with new filler hose and vent line. Use double stainless hose clamps on tank per coast guard.

 

[Friscoboater]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

WOW that is alot of water. I would guess the drains are clogged.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Alright guys,

Just finished up on the boat for the day. Called in the reinforcements and my dad, uncle, and I all began pulling this thing apart at about 7:30a.m. this morning and it has been an all-day deal but I feel like we got alot acomplished.

We began by lableing all the wires and disconecting them so we could remove the T-Top and the Center Console. After both the T-Top and Console were removed, we were able to pull up that last piece of deck that was already cut out which enabled us to have access to the entire gas tank. We then spent the remainder of the day chipping away all the old wet foam and trying to suck out as much water as we could with a shop vac. The main bildge drain plug is out so I suspect that some debris from in the gas tank compartment has blocked the drain hole from the tank to the bildge. We fished around for a while but couldnt find the hole in the gas tank compartment to un-clog it so we could drain out the remaining water so we just sucked out what we could with a shop vac. That was some nasty stuff!!

The gas tank is gigantic, 128 gallons I believe. And its about 3/4 full of old nasty gas that needs to be disposed of somehow. Havent figured that one out yet. Anyways, as soon as we get the tank out and drain all that water out of the tank compartment it should lighten the boat up quite a bit and make it easier to move around.

We also disconnected and removed the 700lb. Mercury 275 O/B and stored it up in the garage for the time being. That took up a big chunck of our time.

Here are some pics of how it sits now:

Here are the wires we labeled and moved aside. It is unbelievable how many wires were underneathe that console. Its going to take an act of god to get everything wired up correctly again.

Here are the fill hoses that go to the top of the tank. I suspect these too will need to be replaced.

Here is the back of the gas tank after we removed alot of the foam.

The tank is aluminum and seems to be in good shape so would there be any reason why I might want to replace it??

As always...keep the opinions and advice comming!!

Thanks again.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Alum tanks should not be foamed in place, they will develop crevice corrosion when water gets trapped between alum and the foam.
There needs to be flowing air all around the tank.

Pull the tank, get rid of the wet foam and inspect the stringers.

Definately re-plumb.

 

[MTribe08]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Also, where is the best place to put batteries on your boat?

Here is what I did with my restore. I realize we have 2 different type of boats, but I believe most people will store their battery(s) at the stern to avoid long cable runs. I was trying to avoid as many screws in the deck as I could, so i built 2 wood pedestals on either side of my engine, and glassed them to the deck and then Gel coated over them.

I then screwed my battery tray and trim motor to these pedestals, avoiding screws in my deck. You may or may not want to consider it.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Oh ok. I had no idea aluminum would have such a problem with trapped water. But now that I think about it, the top of the tank had some kind of white creamy looking spots that i had to scrape off with a putty knife. I hope that isnt the first signs of crevice corosion.

So what would be the best way to secure my tank below deck without using foam??

Also, I need to remove the entire cap from the hull in order for me to get to the stringers. It seems to me that as soon as I remove all the screws holding the cap to the hull it should just pull right off. Are there any hidden surprises I might need to be aware of before doing this?

Im assuming that in order to remove the cap in one solid piece its going to make for a very heavy and awkward lift. Any ideas on how to actually lift the cap off the hull?

Ive thought about using an engine hoist to maybe lift up one end and use man-power to lift up the other end and simply walk it off the hull. There is also some kind of foam that is sandwhiched in between the sides of the boat. Is this foam going to act like glue and keep the cap stuck to the hull??

Any ideas or suggestions???

Thank alot.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Read this, by a marine surveyor, I did mine this way and it was very simple.
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/fueltank.htm
I used 3M 5200.
Clean the alum glue points with acetone.

Lift the cap at one end and slide 2x4's under it, slide the cap aft and off.
To lift you need a sling or 4 guys. 2 guys could slide it off the stern end.
You'll need to reinstall it temporarily to fix the hull side to hold the hull shape.
Thats why I said to do a quick patch then pop the cap off to do the stringers.

As for surprises...thats what makes it fun. You never know what you'll find.
Deck liners usually don't come up without a fight, resolved with a sawzall.
I did my stringers by cutting the deck around the perimeter and pealing it off, I have a molded liner sitting on foam. Foam was injected after deck was placed in hull and the foam glues it down.

I haven't seen a deck liner come out in one peice yet.

 

[fishKILLER1987]

Re: Finally began my summer project and I am already confused...

Ok, good to know.

Thanks for the info on reinstalling the tank. I just hope im not too late and there is not already a hole in it. I guess as soon as I get it out I'll have to inspect it closeley for any signs of extensive corrosion.

I deffinitely agree on doing a quick patch job on the existing damage to the hull before removing the cap. It is easy to see how the hull may loose it original shape once the cap is off. So my plan is to glass the damaged side of the hull, then pop the cap to replace the stringers and the transom. I think regardless of what condition the stringers are in, I am going to replace them anyways. I just think it would be a shame to do this much work to the boat only to have it all fall apart a couple years down the road.

Alright Jonesg, give it to me straight...

You seem like a very experienced and knowledgeable individual in the aspect of extreme boat restoration so I am asking for your honest opinion...

I plan on spending anywhere from 40-45 hrs/week working on my boat. I know I'm pretty much learning as I go but I am a quick learner and I manage my time wisely. If I keep these efforts up, continuing to work 40+ hours per week on the boat, how long would you think it would take me to replace the stringers, replace the transom, reinstall the cap, secure the cap to the hull by means of fiberglass and have the boat structurally sound and ready for paint??

It may be a long shot, but I am determined to have her back in the water by August 1, 2010.