First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

[96lt4c4]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

The video was great!

The engine sounds flawless......It REALLY sounded good!

The "proof in the pudding" as it were, will be when it's inspected by some USCG or USCG AUX dude (or "Boat Cop") that wants to make a point or it's tested in court when something goes wrong.....

There's a zillion of them out there every day. Every year one blows up on Lake Washington or Lake Union (Wa State). The news media never says why....


My only suggestion is that you ensure that your insurance company is aware of what you did and that they are still covering you.


In the aviation world we would have to put "EXPERIMENTAL" in huge letters on the side. You can still get insurance for it and it's all legal. I don't know if there's something similar for boats...

Thanks... I am pretty happy with it.


I know what you are talking about, I have a friend that is a pilot, you cant even change the ash tray in a Cessna that is FAA approved.

He has a pretty cool Experimental plane called an Express. I have actually helped him work on the turbo setup that is on his engine. Its a 6 cyl Lycoming turbo. The cowl had to be reworked because the engine is so big.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

I am not saying that I am better than any body, but most people will not try what I have done. Doing what I have done could be very intimidating for most people. I will say that I would not recommend anyone trying it, if you are not completely comfortable with EFI or the parts that you are using. I have been messing with EFI for years and would not have taken on this project unless I felt completely comfortable doing it.

I can understand where you guys are coming from. I am not some average Joe that thinks hey, I am going to sup up my boat by adding a 4 barrel carb that leaks fuel everywhere.

I know neither of you are going to give any ground on this, and I'm sure Don just wants to make sure that everyone reading your post is warned of potential difficulties.

Maybe there's a way to resolve this discussion... would you consider taking the boat to a Coast Guard (real CG, not Aux) station for an inspection, and seeing what they think of the engine setup?

Erik

PS: Regardless of whether or not your install is considered dangerous, it's an impressive piece of engineering.

 

[Mkos1980]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

I was thinking of the same thing!. They may say all looks good or this needs to be fixed because of this or that and it may be a quick easy fix.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

This may be possible.

The FAA does this in the form of a "Field Approval"

One example is installing an oil filter on an airplane that never had one and no FAA/PMA manufactured part is available. So the mechanic puts an acceptable (possibly automotive) oil filter installation together and asks the local FSDO (Flight Standards Field Office) for an inspection and approval. It used to be very common but is not now for some reason (partly liability I'll bet)

Maybe there's some mechanism to do this with the USCG. It seems to me the last time I was rifling thru the USC on marine regulations, I noticed that a lot of things are now referred directly to the ABYC. A good place to start would be their website.

I did find a page where they define standards. Presumably one could get copies of the standards and then simply ensure that any modifications or systems meet those standards.

http://www.abycinc.org/standards/toc.cfm

If the USCG is anything like the FAA, it's unlikely they'll just take your word for it that you've "met standards" since "cops" are not always mechanics. If they don't see a USCG approved flame suppressor on your carb for example what you do have on there won't count even if you know it's "better"!!

Even though the ABYC is a "non-profit" organization, they still sell their standards and require someone to be a member. It's not cheap for an individual that just wants to join for info. If you're a manufacturer the cost is minuscule.

I didn't read everything on their site but it appears that if you wanted to try to certify any non-marine system that requires certification this would be a good place to start.


Also, I'll add that the ABYC may not even want to mess with it at all for liability reasons. If they certified a system that subsequently "blew up" they would probably be in court for years!


Cheers,

Rick


(As an aside. Since this thread is slowly diverging from "Merc/VP/OMC problems" it'll probably get moved or locked!)

 

[dcg9381]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

What software are you using to program the ECU?
I've seen a few boat conversions using megasqurit - can do TBI or MPI... Great projects.

 

[TollyWally]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

Hey 96,
Congratulations on a job well done!

That being said, I would like to address this issue of safety. First however I will provide a bit of context. I live on the water and have been around boats all of my life. I apprenticed as a shipwright and spent 15 years fishing commercially in the Gulf of Alaska. While it is distasteful to brag on oneself I am confident that my opinions about matters of a marine nature are both deep and wide.

This nation of ours is filled with literally hundreds of thousands of boats built to ABYC standards and Coast Guard specifications that are absolute pieces of junk. I would have no fear of a system engineered and installed by an intelligent man who understands the principles, practices, and theory of marine mechanical work.

In fact I would go even a bit further and offer a modest wager that 96's boat will be safer and more reliable than a brand new boat off the showroom floor. Certainly under adverse conditions I would much rather be on his boat than one whose skipper counted on ABYC recommendations and Coast Guard stickers and warning labels as an indication of seaworthiness.

Would his boat pass an on the water safety inspection? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I most respectfully submit that the fact of whether or not he received a ticket would have very little bearing on the fitness and seaworthiness of his vessel. I shall now step down from my soapbox and again offer my congratulations on a job well done.
.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

I LOVE that sig!!! Open season on Tourists!

You hit it on the head!

The "boat cops" are not going to be convinced that it's good/bad/safe/or unsafe. They'll only look for the USCG "Cert" and if it doesn't have it.......they won't be very nice.

In reality. Most "cops" only look for the obvious under the hood. USCG type accepted flame arrester, fire extinguisher, do your blowers or horn work, etc.

I'll bet they don't notice alternators, starters, EFI systems etc. You have to look very close to see that sort of stuff......they probably just look for something easy.

My guess is that they just won't notice the EFI sys. (make sure you have an approved flame arrester on it though!!)

If it never blows up and hurts someone, no one will ever know except whom ever you tell... As careful as you have been making this thing work properly, you'll probably never have a problem with it. (for gods sake don't sell it to anyone! If they blew it up they would probably come back and sue you!!.....that btw HAS happened when someone crashed an experimental airplane they bought from someone else!)


Cheers,

Rick

 

[96lt4c4]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

Hey 96,
Congratulations on a job well done!

That being said, I would like to address this issue of safety. First however I will provide a bit of context. I live on the water and have been around boats all of my life. I apprenticed as a shipwright and spent 15 years fishing commercially in the Gulf of Alaska. While it is distasteful to brag on oneself I am confident that my opinions about matters of a marine nature are both deep and wide.

This nation of ours is filled with literally hundreds of thousands of boats built to ABYC standards and Coast Guard specifications that are absolute pieces of junk. I would have no fear of a system engineered and installed by an intelligent man who understands the principles, practices, and theory of marine mechanical work.

In fact I would go even a bit further and offer a modest wager that 96's boat will be safer and more reliable than a brand new boat off the showroom floor. Certainly under adverse conditions I would much rather be on his boat than one whose skipper counted on ABYC recommendations and Coast Guard stickers and warning labels as an indication of seaworthiness.

Would his boat pass an on the water safety inspection? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I most respectfully submit that the fact of whether or not he received a ticket would have very little bearing on the fitness and seaworthiness of his vessel. I shall now step down from my soapbox and again offer my congratulations on a job well done.
.

Thanks, I appriciate that.

 

[96lt4c4]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

I LOVE that sig!!! Open season on Tourists!

You hit it on the head!

The "boat cops" are not going to be convinced that it's good/bad/safe/or unsafe. They'll only look for the USCG "Cert" and if it doesn't have it.......they won't be very nice.

In reality. Most "cops" only look for the obvious under the hood. USCG type accepted flame arrester, fire extinguisher, do your blowers or horn work, etc.

I'll bet they don't notice alternators, starters, EFI systems etc. You have to look very close to see that sort of stuff......they probably just look for something easy.

My guess is that they just won't notice the EFI sys. (make sure you have an approved flame arrester on it though!!)

If it never blows up and hurts someone, no one will ever know except whom ever you tell... As careful as you have been making this thing work properly, you'll probably never have a problem with it. (for gods sake don't sell it to anyone! If they blew it up they would probably come back and sue you!!.....that btw HAS happened when someone crashed an experimental airplane they bought from someone else!)


Cheers,

Rick

The boat has the flame arrestor on it. Just like it came from the factory.

I would never ever sell this boat to anyone with the mods that I have done to it. For one thing I would not want to let all the parts go with the boat. Second, they would not know how to work on it or tune the ECM, and would be coming back to me anytime there was a problem. This is a completely custom setup that I have made and I can guarantee there is not another like it. I have all the original parts that I took off and plan to put them back on if I ever sell the boat.

Here is what I will do. The next time I go to the lake I will have my boat inspected by the water cops. I am pretty sure if you have that done they will give you a little sticker to put on your boat to show that you comply. I will post a picture of the sticker on my boat if I get it. If I don't get the sticker, I will let you and everyone else on this forum know what they hit me on. Then I will fix the problem.

Does that sound cool....

 

[motoman22@yahoo.com]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

I was thinking of the same thing!. They may say all looks good or this needs to be fixed because of this or that and it may be a quick easy fix.

Been there, done that. I built a boat, a small flatbottom fishing boat using an old Jetski driveline. I had owned the jetski forever, had clear title in my name, it was even still registered. The boat was alum, ply, and 'glass.

After building the boat, tried to get registration. Tax office (where I register all boats) said I had to have title. With a homemade boat, have to get it 'inspected' and some legal thing done and they directed me to the local game warden.

Called him, brought it to him, he 'inspected' it and said no. I asked why. He pointed out that this piece and that piece were not USCG approved. Understandably, I was a bit perplexed because this was a HOMEMADE boat. I asked him to explain what exactly was wrong with it and he just kept pointing out that there were no USCG numbers on piece after piece.

He knew NOTHING about ~what~ made it unsafe, he just didn't see the certs and that was that. I ended up selling the boat to a guy who lived on a private lake. He's been enjoying it for years without incident.

In other words, without the numbers it is considered unsafe regardless of whether or not it is. I was informed that I could apply for USCG approval and after a few YEARS and tens of thousands of dollar in testing and fees, I ~might~ get it (but he said he wouldn't count on it.)

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

That could be a problem.

I really don't know about EFI systems. Do they actually have USCG "cert" numbers on them anyway? The boat "cop" will probably want to look at the starter, ALT, flame arrester, blowers, maybe even the electric fuel pump.....the obvious stuff. If you tell him you put an automotive EFI system on it he'll focus (like a laser beam) on it.!!

The starter will be hard to see but experienced people would probably recognize it as a marine starter....same for an alt, carb, etc.

This is where it might be advantageous to get those "standards" from the ABYC....but you might have to join to get them unless you know someone in the industry that could get them for you.

This may be one of those "If you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question" things.....

There has to be a way for someone to do all kinds of experimental development on boats and be legal......that might be the question to ask.....BUT clearly the "boat people" at the lake are not the ones to ask. They're only there to cite you if they see a violation. They probably won't know what could be certified, only what doesn't comply.

 

[lmannyr]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

96lt4c4,

So how is the conversion? Any Updates.

 

[crussell85]

Re: First time out with fuel injection, 305 MPFI

The boat has the flame arrestor on it. Just like it came from the factory.

I would never ever sell this boat to anyone with the mods that I have done to it. For one thing I would not want to let all the parts go with the boat. Second, they would not know how to work on it or tune the ECM, and would be coming back to me anytime there was a problem. This is a completely custom setup that I have made and I can guarantee there is not another like it. I have all the original parts that I took off and plan to put them back on if I ever sell the boat.

Here is what I will do. The next time I go to the lake I will have my boat inspected by the water cops. I am pretty sure if you have that done they will give you a little sticker to put on your boat to show that you comply. I will post a picture of the sticker on my boat if I get it. If I don't get the sticker, I will let you and everyone else on this forum know what they hit me on. Then I will fix the problem.

Does that sound cool....

I know this is super old but just curious of how things worked out? Do you still have the boat? Has it been reliable? I am all for the tbi swap over a carb and am very interested in doing this as well. As far as USCG Regulations, if someone was to buy an aftermarket "Marine" carb such as a Holley or Eddy it wouldn't comply to USCG Regulations because you are changing the fuel system that has not been tested by the "Boat" Manufacturer, so whats the fuss about the efi but swapping the carb is totally acceptable?

? 183.542 Fuel systems.
top

(a) Each fuel system in a boat must have been tested by the boat manufacturer and not leak when subjected to the greater of the following pressures:

(1) Three pounds per square inch; or

(2) One and one-half times the pressure created in the lowest part of the fuel system when it is filled to the level of overflow with fuel.

(b) The test pressure shall be obtained with air or inert gas.

[CGD 81?092, 48 FR 55737, Dec. 15, 1983]