Flipping a Coin: New Boat vs. Used

[Racklefrack]

Me, i would be looking for a Hydrostream V'king with a 2.5 just to keep up with some of the larger go-fast boats in the area. however some of the areas your planning on taking the boat, the wave action from boat wakes is 4' swells, or more like the channels on Lake Powell

Yeah, um...

Too much trim and the Viking will without warning suddenly lift straight up in the air, and often up-and-over.

No thanks

 

[Racklefrack]

I think the used vs new comes down to your mechanical abilities and desire to work on a boat. Personally I can handle any of the issues so there's no huge risk to me if something goes wrong. Theres are so many boats out there that just don't get used, a couple years old and a hundred hours on them. Usually are used for a couple years then the use tapers off. This is what I look for, but I'm out value shopping. Best deal is if it hardly gets used and the wife hates it.... if you're more interested in a deal used no question, if your pocket is deeper and you don't want to worry go new

My mechanical abilities are rudimentary at best, but I'm not at all afraid to learn by getting my hands dirty. price isn't the primary concern, but I don't want to waste money or pass up any great deals either. Based on your responses and others, I'm looking harder at used boats than I was just a couple days ago.

Thanks!

 

[Racklefrack]

Looking at your location and projected uses....Go with a aluminum boat....Top 3 brands...Lund,Alumacraft and Crestliner, also are the most expensive.Tracker boats sold thru Bass Pro Shops come in packages. A fiend of mine just took delivery of a loaded 2018 Pro V Guide 175 Combo with the standard 90hp 4str Mercury..what a sweet package for just under $25K.

I'm not going to rule out aluminum boats, but that style really doesn't interest my wife in the least. I know, it's not logical and perhaps an aluminum boat might be better suited to our intended uses, but you know the ol' saying... happy wife, happy life

 

[Racklefrack]

I would go new, personally. In your situation, with that tow vehicle, all of the boats you mentioned are really pushing that weight limit. Don't discount aluminum boats. For example, this one...

http://www.princecraft.com/us/en/products/Deck-Boats/2017/Ventura-Series/Ventura-190.aspx

more room than the others and 800 pounds lighter. Ultimately, it is up to you to decide what you are looking for in a boat and pulling the trigger. It seems you have the pros and cons pretty well nailed down.

New: more expensive, but comes with a warranty. Especially helpful with new boat owners as they can become familiar with the ins and outs of maintenance while under warranty.

Used: Deals can be found on excellent boats, but there is no surefire way to tell if the boat was taken care of.

I just responded to fishin98 about aluminum boats, but admittedly I only took a quick look at the Tracker he suggested, which really isn't the style we're looking for. However, the Ventura you links has a lot of potential, but there is one thing... it's within a couple hundred pounds of the bowriders I'm looking at so far, and that's not quite enough difference to justify the sacrifices we'd have to make. But this is just one boat, so I'm going to do a lot more research into aluminum boats,

Thanks for pointing me in this direction!

 

[Racklefrack]

An RV'er with toad owner (38' Holiday Rambler) that likes to pull a boat on occasion here as well, only we're snowbirds based in MI and FL.

I'll start with the fact I HATE being forced into dealing with a dealer. From an expense standpoint (original purchase price, depreciation, and ridiculous labor expenses), from a "you want it when?" standpoint, from an incompetence standpoint, and from a standpoint where salesmen are either inexperienced or lying for their own benefit (to the point you can't believe a word they say). I'll do nearly anything to avoid a dealership. This goes for my RV as well as my boats! Call me cynical if you like, but it is what it is.

So it would go without saying "warranty" is an expensive joke to me. What you pay to get it is money I'd much rather keep for my own purposes (yes, retired!).

I'd go aluminum as well, especially for your purposes, because I'm pretty sure I could find a larger boat for a given weight, and the water you're talking about is where size could easily make a difference. I've converted to 4 stroke, and wouldn't go any other route for any reason.

Depending on how far I was towing (local only vs. cross country), I might have a tendency to push a vehicle's tow capacity without a lot of concern, but trust me, I get the steep and/or slippery ramp scenarios! Check them out ahead of time if you know where you'll be spending most of your time. To see and be prepared for what you'll be dealing with ahead of time! This may help prevent being overly conservative with your toad's tow rating.

Best of luck! -Al

Thanks Al... and nice rig, by the way - love HR's. We have an '04 Newmar Mountain Aire, 43' DP.

I know what dealerships can be like - I used to be an F&I guy in one I have no problem walking out if anything gets hinky.

Based on yours and other responses, I'm going to give a second look to aluminum boats. The few I had looked at before were basically fishing boats which really doesn't fit our style so I kinda gave up on them. I can see now I might have given up that search prematurely.

The car would only tow the boat locally - probably just from the RV to the water - so I'm right there with you on not worrying too much about pushing the tow limits. At most, our house is about an hour or so away from Mead, Mohave and Havasu, and maybe 90 or so minutes from Pleasant. That's about the farthest we'd be towing if we just wanted to go out for just one day, and why would we wanna do that? Anything long distance and we'd tow with the RV, which makes weight a non-issue.

Thanks for all your input!

 

[Racklefrack]

I really appreciate everyone's help, thank you!

Because no one really mentioned having major concerns about buying used entry-level motors, I'm gonna take that to mean it probably isn't as big a deal as I was making out of it.

I admit I didn't look very closely at aluminums - kinda gave up on those really early on in my research. But I'll take a loser look now that my eyes have been opened to some possibilities I didn't know were out there... like the Ventura,

One thing though... wahlejim suggested the boat he linked was 800 lbs lighter than the boats I mentioned, so I had to go back and double-check just to see and the Four Winns - for instance - is only a few hundreds pounds heavier; I think the Bayliner is actually lighter by a hundred pounds or so. My natural inclination is to assume I missed something... can someone help clarify?

Thanks again everyone! You were an enormous help

 

[fhhuber]

The intended use screams to me that you want a decent size aluminum hull. Much lighter than fiberglass for the potential shallow river runs. Less draft and bigger boat for the weight. You also go faster on a smaller (less expensive to buy and less expensive to operate) engine.

I'd recommend you start perusing the Alumacraft lineup.

 

[wahlejim]

I really appreciate everyone's help, thank you!

Because no one really mentioned having major concerns about buying used entry-level motors, I'm to take that to mean it probably isn't as big a deal as I was making out of it.

I admit I didn't look very closely at aluminums - kinda gave up on those really early on in my research. But I'll take a loser look now that my eyes have been opened to some possibilities I didn't know were out there... like the Ventura,

One thing though... wahlejim suggested the boat he linked was 800 lbs lighter than the boats I mentioned, so I had to go back and double-check just to see and the Four Winns - for instance - is only a few hundreds pounds heavier; I think the Bayliner is actually lighter by a hundred pounds or so. My natural inclination is to assume I missed something... can someone help clarify?

Thanks again everyone! You were an enormous help

When you look at the weight of any given boat, especially for an outboard hull, take into account the weight of the motor. Often times the manufacturer does not list that in dry weight because they do not know which motor you are putting on. Also, you have to account for an 800 pound trailer and another 400-600 pounds of fuel, batteries and equipment. Even in this case, a couple hundred pounds is a big deal when you are pushing the tow limit on your vehicle.

 

[Racklefrack]

When you look at the weight of any given boat, especially for an outboard hull, take into account the weight of the motor. Often times the manufacturer does not list that in dry weight because they do not know which motor you are putting on. Also, you have to account for an 800 pound trailer and another 400-600 pounds of fuel, batteries and equipment. Even in this case, a couple hundred pounds is a big deal when you are pushing the tow limit on your vehicle.

Understood, thanks!

Been doing quite a bit of research over the last hour or so and one thing stands out to me... the bowriders I mentioned have an average deadrise of about 20?, but the aluminum deck boats I've seen so far are only about 13? or so. I get that they'd be great for treading in shallow water but I don't think they'd do well at all on choppy conditions like we'll likely very often see at the windiest lakes Havasu, Mead and especially Powell.

I clearly have more research to do

 

[ahicks]

I'm afraid I can't be much help regarding hull style. I am absolutely stuck on pontoons for my purposes. So a "step in" (vs. step on) deck boat appeals to me as well. We've spent some time on the Great Lakes and the Gulf, but I sure understand if you're looking for something for bigger water though. You would darn sure be keeping a wary eye on the wind/weather with something like that.

What about a center console? Would something along those lines appeal to you? They're hugely popular on bigger water in both Mi and Fl. and available with about any hull design you can think of.

 

[jkust]

I was waiting for your response to the proposed aluminum boats. Deadrise is big for dealing with chop as is weight unfortunately. Modern deckboats for example can be very heavy, extremely well appointed but they generally have a shallow deadrise compared to their bowrider equivalent and don't do as well in chop as a steeper deadrise boat. An aluminum boat would be a great second or maybe third boat for fishing but if I had to only own one boat, It wouldn't be an aluminum boat. There's some bigger aluminum boats out there that may fit the bill but those are relatively expensive...the Tyee comes to mind.

 

[fhhuber]

The "flat nose" Jon boats tend to not have a lot of dead rise.

But if you look you can find them with the V nose and some have really good dead rise.

See this one as an example
http://www.alumacraft.com/Alumacraft-Boat-Search.php?action=list&model_year=2017&model_line=21
(noting that this isn't the only brand to look at...)

http://www.starcraftmarine.com/showroom/2017/fishing/fishmaster

Aluminum hulls being lighter do feel the waves more than the heavy fiberglass.

You make choices and pick which attribute is more important.

 

[Scott Danforth]

agreed that the narrow channels of Powell can get choppy, especially with the doppler effect of the canyon walls. usually at least once a week a ski boat is sunk, retrieved, dried out..... etc.

outboard hulls do NOT include the weight of the motor. since your limited to 3500# total, make sure to get a scale weight of the boat/motor/trailer/estimated gear prior to purchase. I can tell you that most published weights for any boat hull is highly optimistic. some boat hulls are 100% heavier (2x published weight). we have had many boats / tenders at work come in and are weighed at either the FAT (Factory Acceptance Test) or the HAT (Harbor Acceptance Test) only to have the yacht owner need to buy a new tender that comes in at the weight the crane and yacht structure is designed for.

 

[Racklefrack]

I'm afraid I can't be much help regarding hull style. I am absolutely stuck on pontoons for my purposes. So a "step in" (vs. step on) deck boat appeals to me as well. We've spent some time on the Great Lakes and the Gulf, but I sure understand if you're looking for something for bigger water though. You would darn sure be keeping a wary eye on the wind/weather with something like that.

What about a center console? Would something along those lines appeal to you? They're hugely popular on bigger water in both Mi and Fl. and available with about any hull design you can think of.

I may have overstated how big the water will get here just a tad It's not uncommon for the desert winds to whip up 2-4' swells or so - even bigger on Powell I'm told - but we'd be off the water long before that happened... if we were caught be surprise we might have to scramble back through some of it, but it wouldn't be for all day.

I did some research on center consoles early on but didn't find anything we really liked in our weight range. I'll take a second (and third) look. Speaking of pontoons, I'm even taking a look at those as well... some really nice ones out there. Not sure they'll fit what we're looking for, but just trying to keep an open mind and research all options

 

[Racklefrack]

I was waiting for your response to the proposed aluminum boats. Deadrise is big for dealing with chop as is weight unfortunately. Modern deckboats for example can be very heavy, extremely well appointed but they generally have a shallow deadrise compared to their bowrider equivalent and don't do as well in chop as a steeper deadrise boat. An aluminum boat would be a great second or maybe third boat for fishing but if I had to only own one boat, It wouldn't be an aluminum boat. There's some bigger aluminum boats out there that may fit the bill but those are relatively expensive...the Tyee comes to mind.

My knee-jerk reaction to aluminum boats so far is that they're not really what we're looking for, the deadrise issue being just one reason why. I really did like the Ventura mentioned earlier, but "building" a new boat on their website and outfitting it the way we'd want it priced out at almost $42k, but since the aluminum hull didn't solve the weight problem I can't really justify spending that much more.

Still looking, not giving up

 

[Racklefrack]

The "flat nose" Jon boats tend to not have a lot of dead rise.

But if you look you can find them with the V nose and some have really good dead rise.

See this one as an example
http://www.alumacraft.com/Alumacraft-Boat-Search.php?action=list&model_year=2017&model_line=21
(noting that this isn't the only brand to look at...)

http://www.starcraftmarine.com/showroom/2017/fishing/fishmaster

Aluminum hulls being lighter do feel the waves more than the heavy fiberglass.

You make choices and pick which attribute is more important.

I've gone through about 20 different models of Alumacraft... haven't found anything we really like so far.

I do like the Starcrafts... the deckboats are nice but even the smallest one is just too heavy, AND it's too small But the 172 OB Sport is nice AND light... very good possibilities there though it only has a 15? deadrise which is iffy on these waters. I'll have to do more research on that.

Thanks!

 

[jkust]

My knee-jerk reaction to aluminum boats so far is that they're not really what we're looking for, the deadrise issue being just one reason why. I really did like the Ventura mentioned earlier, but "building" a new boat on their website and outfitting it the way we'd want it priced out at almost $42k, but since the aluminum hull didn't solve the weight problem I can't really justify spending that much more.

Still looking, not giving up

It can be a journey, that's for sure.

 

[Racklefrack]

agreed that the narrow channels of Powell can get choppy, especially with the doppler effect of the canyon walls. usually at least once a week a ski boat is sunk, retrieved, dried out..... etc.

outboard hulls do NOT include the weight of the motor. since your limited to 3500# total, make sure to get a scale weight of the boat/motor/trailer/estimated gear prior to purchase. I can tell you that most published weights for any boat hull is highly optimistic. some boat hulls are 100% heavier (2x published weight). we have had many boats / tenders at work come in and are weighed at either the FAT (Factory Acceptance Test) or the HAT (Harbor Acceptance Test) only to have the yacht owner need to buy a new tender that comes in at the weight the crane and yacht structure is designed for.

I've spoken to three different dealers and told them any sale would be contingent on me hooking the boat up to my car, weighing it and then launching and retrieving it... none of them wanted to get the boats wet without a firm deal, but none of them said no either

I've done a lot of research on the boat weights... the manufacturer's I mentioned in my original post seem to be fairly close in their estimates based on real-world comparisons I've been able to find online, though I do have to add the dry weight, the motor and an estimate of the trailer weight to get the true number. Even so, I'm not taking ANYONE'S word for it... definitely getting it weighed

 

[Scott Danforth]

just as a side note, weighted a 17' boston whaler - new, never had fuel, etc. it was a few hundred # heavy. weighed a 17' yellow fin, it was 700# heavy (hull was supposed to be 600#, was actually 600kg)

 

[JimS123]

Maybe a little late in the conversation here, but here is my $0.02 anyway.

I have bought new, used, crap needing refurbishing, inboard, outboard, aluminum and glass. My first was homemade wood. One of my current treasures is wood, wouldn't trade her for any money, she was out with the family today, but that's for another story.

IMHO, brand new, fiberglass outboard, entry level is what you should buy. Today entry level doesn't mean junk. It just means smaller, fewer amenities and not the biggest motor available.

Mt buddy bought one just like that. He was clueless about upkeep and maintenance, and when he sold it is was crap. But you couldn't tell. A neighbor had a clunker sitting in the driveway uncovered for 3 years, unused. He cleaned it up and polished it , put it in the garage and advertised it as garage kept. It sold in a day. That's what you run into with used - you never know.

My "old" boat was bought brand new 33 years ago. Its worth more now than I paid for it. Depreciation.....pfffft. If you keep it long enough you made a good investment.

My "new" boat came with a 2 year warranty. The dealer extended it to 5 years. Awesome purchase and awesome dealer.

My last used OB came with all kinds of guarantees. It ran only 1 time. The final cost to get it in shape was twice what I paid.

Yeah, the 2footitis guy that sells his pristine baby, or the guy (bless his heart) that sells his baby because he just got deployed to Afghanistan are surely out there. Buy new and you don't have to worry.