float needle valve

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Hey all; Have a question about carb kit i just got. The original float needle has a rubber tip on it. The kit i got has brass needle valve, no rubber tip. The seat is not replacable. Is this acceptable as a replacement? 2000 90 hp 2-stroke 3-cylinder calls for sierra carb kit 18-7750 which is the one i got. Thanks for any input.
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
28,074
Re: float needle valve

I do not have a specific answer for you, however, normally either the seat or needle (usually the needle) has a neopreme coating so it will seal well. So the seat is all brass and the needle all SS?
 

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Re: float needle valve

Hey Chris. You are right. The new needle is ss. My mistake. So do you think this will seat well. The seat looks to be brass. I believe years ago that is the way they were done. Seems the rubber is getting eat up more with ethanol and maybe the replacements are going back to ss. But years ago you were able to replace the seat too, not so with this carb. Thanks for any response
 

CharlieB

Vice Admiral
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
5,617
Re: float needle valve

Is the new needle the same length as the original?

Some kits with a SS needle are almost an 1/8 inch shorter and have the little red sort of 'O' ring in the kit that needs to be installed to become the new 'seat'.

I have rarely had to call Sierra tech and find a wrong part # in the catalog, but it has happened.
 

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Re: float needle valve

Hey CharlieB; Needle is the same length. I installed the needle in one of the carbs before rebuild and blew thru the gas inlet hose and it seems to seat well. Don't hear any air sneaking thru. I imagine ethanol is the culprit to eating up the rubber tips and causing my flooding problems. Have you any input on that, if not thanks for your response.
 

Texasmark

Supreme Mariner
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Dec 20, 2005
Messages
14,778
Re: float needle valve

Over the years I have had carb kits on all types of vehicles. Some have one some the other. Personally, I feel that although the rubber (neoprene probably) is softer and easier to seat, it may well be your worse choice if you leave your engine full of fuel and the float keeps pressure on the needle during storage.

It could deform and if so, will not work properly. My current engine siphons the gas out of the carbs while sitting at home so I don't have to worry about draining the carbs. Every time I want to use it I have to pump the primer bulb half a dozed times to get all the carbs filled back up. Great!

Mark

Mark
 

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Re: float needle valve

Hey Mark , How does your engine siphon out the gas? I've heard of running it dry after shutting off fuel, but exactly what do you mean. Since i believe ETHANOL is the biggest culprit to problems of motors that aren't run much, i am going to have a small auxillary gas tank on my pontoon where after i'm done for the day, i'll run some ETHANOL free gas thru the carbs.and let it sit that way untill the next use. I'll still put some stabilizer in it too. I don't know if leaving carbs and fuel lines dry is a good thing. It seems like a catch 22. Thanks
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
28,074
Re: float needle valve

Ethanol is not an issue, as long as the fuel doesn't contain any water. See the stickys for some ethanol reports and tips
 

bassrascal02

Cadet
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
17
Re: float needle valve

I just rebuilt the 4 carbs on my 95 115 Merc becuase of either a flooding or "sticking" problem according to the Tracker boat house. I am new to fixing outboards so I was asking a ton of questions and the parts manager told me that the ethanol can cause the older rubber tips on the needles to swell or expand as well as wear out faster. The swelling happens if the carb is full of fuel and the tip sits around the fuel for an extended period of time. As I said I am new to rebuilding engines but want to learn so please correct any of this if its not true. Just trying to share what I heard. Good luck with your carbs vettman.
 

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Re: float needle valve

Hey Chris, I agree with you to a certain extent. Since ethanol is known to attract and absorb water and moisture, being in Florida where humidity levels barely go below 65- 70 % in the winter time, let alone summer, i'm sure the fuel in my tank has some level of moisture. As the boat sits it just gets worse. If you use something on a constant basis , such as a car, your using the fuel fast enough as not to give the ethanol time to do it's nasty job. Bassrascal hit it on the head as far as damage to rubber products. They wouldn't be making ethanol resistant products now if it didn't have a damaging effect on older products---- i.e. hoses, gaskets, etc. Thanks
 

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
Re: float needle valve

Since ethanol is known to attract and absorb water and moisture,
This is from Mercury Marine....

"There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."
"After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
 

vettman

Seaman
Joined
Jul 11, 2001
Messages
57
Re: float needle valve

Ya didn't think Mercury was going to tell you otherwise ,did ya. Thanks for all the input
 

Gomer50

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
507
Re: float needle valve

The truth about ethanol..

In the few years since ethanol began to be widely used in the United States, a lot has been written about its properties, the problems it's created, and how to best cope with its possible effects. Some of the advice has been based on science, some on hearsay. While E10 is not an ideal fuel ? and E15 could cause serious problems for marine engines ? at least a few myths about ethanol have arisen with the potential to do more harm than good:


Myth #1: Ethanol-enhanced gasoline (E10) loses octane much faster than regular gasoline.

Many mechanics believe that octane loss during winter storage could be great enough to damage an engine when it's run in the spring. These same mechanics will often recommend leaving the tank almost empty so that fresh gasoline can be added in the spring to raise depleted octane levels. While all gasoline loses octane as it ages, ethanol-enhanced gasoline loses octane at about the same rate as regular gasoline, according to Jim Simnick, a technical advisor at BP Global Fuels Technology, and Lew Gibbs, a senior engineering consultant and Chevron Fellow. The two men have over 75 years of combined experience working with gasoline and both agree that the loss of octane over the winter would not be sufficient to damage an engine. Note, however, to keep any gasoline, including E10, as fresh as possible; they said it's good practice to always add fuel stabilizer ? an antioxidant ? whenever the boat will be idle for long periods.

The recommendation to leave a tank mostly empty is bad advice; it could significantly increase the amount of water that gets into the tank. When enough water enters through the vent, the ethanol will separate ("phase separate") from the gasoline. Leaving a tank mostly empty does three things to increase the chances of phase separation:

It increases the volume of open space in the tank (its "lung capacity") so it can "breathe in" damaging moist air. An almost-empty tank leaves more space on tank walls for condensation to form. Leaving less gasoline in the tank means there will be less ethanol to absorb the condensation.

It's interesting to note that in areas of the Midwest that have been dealing with E10 for over a decade, topping off tanks is common practice. (As an alternative, completely emptying the tank would eliminate any chance of phase separation.)

If phase separation occurs, the highly corrosive ethanol/water mixture will settle to the bottom of the tank and remain there even after fresh fuel is added in the spring. The only way to remedy the problem would then be to drain the tank and add fresh gasoline. The best way to avoid phase separation over the winter (aside from emptying the tank) is to leave the tank 95-percent full (which allows for expansion) so that there's less moist air in the tank, less space for condensation to collect, and more gasoline to absorb whatever moisture does accumulate.


Myth #2: E10 attracts water, so it's important to install a water separator to prevent the water reaching the engine.

Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.

Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem.


Myth #3: Certain additives can prevent phase separation?

Both Gibbs and Simnick said that the additives that eliminate water may work incrementally to protect against phase separation, but Joe Simnick stressed that no additives will stand up to a good slug of water. Lew Gibbs added that the best way to prevent phase separation in E10 is to "keep it dry, keep it dry, keep it dry." That means keeping the tank filled to prevent condensation. Mercury Marine has also noted that, contrary to statements made by some companies that produce fuel additives, there are no additives that can make stale or phase-separated gasoline usable.

E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the
system 'dry.'"
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
28,074
Re: float needle valve

Bassrascal, I think the Parts Manager is telling fish stories. I would think your '95 Merc would already have had ethanol-resistant gaskets and hoses, and carb inlet needles.

Inlet needles and seats wear out from use, all the time.
 

bassrascal02

Cadet
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
17
Re: float needle valve

@Chris1956 -- You are probably right. More then likely I was just having performance issues based on parts simply wearing out. I know that the one owner of my boat before me was not very good about keeping it maintained on a regular basis. He was using it once every few months.... I try to get it out at least once a week, so i'm probably just putting more stress on the engine than its used to.

Side note: I am new to the forum obviously...but this is great stuff...thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge.
 

Faztbullet

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
15,930
Re: float needle valve

The 18-7750 kit should have the coated rubber tipped needle, it has a grey /silver coating that makes it look like a solid needle. You do not want to run a solid needle in these carbs as it will wear out the seat over time (inlet hole enlarges). The carbs that used a solid needle had a rubber seat in the bottom of them. If it is a solid needle needle it is wrong and you need to call Sierra/Teleflex tech line and talk to Donnie Sturgen to get the correct needles #18-7062..
 

Texasmark

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
14,778
Re: float needle valve

Hey Mark , How does your engine siphon out the gas? I've heard of running it dry after shutting off fuel, but exactly what do you mean. Since i believe ETHANOL is the biggest culprit to problems of motors that aren't run much, i am going to have a small auxillary gas tank on my pontoon where after i'm done for the day, i'll run some ETHANOL free gas thru the carbs.and let it sit that way untill the next use. I'll still put some stabilizer in it too. I don't know if leaving carbs and fuel lines dry is a good thing. It seems like a catch 22. Thanks

Well, the tank is vented and lower than the engine....like most applications. The carb is vented to the atmosphere via the venturi tubes. Apparently my squeeze bulb one way valve leaks somewhat and allows gravity to siphon gas back to the tank. It holds ok when I pump it up to run it, but over a month or two of sitting it will bleed back.

If it is broken I am not about to fix it as I like it as it is.

Mark
 
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