Floor replacement question

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

Thanks!

Today or tomorrow I'm going to remove some foam from the side of the stringers to see how solid the lower portions are.

I also will take more core samples of the foam. It looks like most of the foam is not wet, only a small spot at the aft end.

I find it interesting that the 2 feet of deck between the stringer and hull is only supported by the foam. Because of that, it looks I have to retain at least a narrow strip of foam along the hull to locate the new deck at the proper height for tabbing to the hull.

Steve

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

One other question:

Does anyone know where to buy polyester resin locally here in the Buffalo/Western New York Area?

Thanks

Steve

 

[rickryder]

Re: Floor replacement question

A quick google search brought up this place....maybe the have what you need

Specialty Fiberglass Inc
. 35 Dole St, Buffalo, NY 14210 (716) 823-0007


Le Roy Composite Products
. 51 North St, le Roy, NY 14482 ? Map (585) 768-7634

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

I tried some local places but they either didn't sell the resin or wanted a lot of money for them. Finally, I found a local place that has resin for just about $10 more for the 5 gallon size than US Composites charges with shipping (and Hazmat fee). However, their mat, 1708 and cloth prices are higher. I may just order everything from US Composites an wait the week it takes to get here.

I checked E-bay briefly and it seems that US Composites has the fiberglass as cheap as E-bay. Are there better deals on E-bay but I didn't look close enough or search all the hits?

Finally, it appears that the 1708 is only used for tabbing and other narrow-strip uses. Am I better off buying the 1708 "tape" or should I buy the full width and cut it as needed in case I need a wider piece?


I'm hoping to order the supplies tomorow so they can arrive next week. Then I will take a few vacation days off from work to have a few full days to work on the boat. I hope to get the boat in the water by Independence Day.


My son and I are in the process of watching the Youtube videos by Friscoboater. These videos are great tutorials on what to do (and what not to do!).

Thanks
Steve

 

[rickryder]

Re: Floor replacement question

I used 1708 for full wraps on my stringers 2 layers and 2 layers on my deck topside....I used csm to tab in.

US Composites has the best price on glass IMO

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Floor replacement question

What height are your stringers? Check the first link in my signature. You do not have to full wrap your stringers in 1708 and therefor IF your stringers are not too tall you could just use the 12" 1708 tape. You will need some full width for the transom but only about 4-5 yards. I agree that USC is prolly your best bet on supplies.

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

Woodonglass: My stingers are about 8" high and 1" thick.

I am about to look at the transom to check it. The design looks a little different from what I thought it would be. The outside fiberglas skin is molded to the hull as expected. On the inside, there is wood (1" thick ply) and then a layer of fiberglass over it. The wood does not go all the way to the top of the transom. It is a "inverted T" shape. The lower part goes all the way from side to side for about a foot of height (as measured from the bilge bottom) and then a strip about 30" wide continues up the center until it goes up about 3 feet (measured from bilge bottom) and then ends. The wood ends are glassed over to the transom outer skin. The transom areas that are not wood reinforced (along the top foot or so and partly down the sides) have a foam aplied to it (similar to the foam under the deck) and then very lightly glassed over. The entire transom inside is then painted a black color. The area where the outdrive is attached has another 1/2" ply layer placed over the assembly, presumably for more strength.

I hope any transom damage is very minor, if I have to remove the engine/outdrive that will be a much bigger deal.

Steve

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: Floor replacement question

Post some pics of the transom. Will help me understand what you are describing. With 12" 1708 tape you can do your stringers. 6" on the stringer and 6" tabbing onto the hull. 2" Cap of CSM on the top and you're good to go. As long as you predrill your deck screws and fill with resin when screwing into the stringers they'll last for decades and be totally waterproof. Check the link in my signature for details on how to do it.

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: Floor replacement question

Gonna throw in my two cents here, Everything Woody told you is correct, I use the 1708 tape a good bit for stringer tabbing and tabbing is a deck, it cost a little more but much quicker than cutting it yourself plus it has a nice edge on both sides.

Now on splicing your stringers, again Woody told you correctly, but I'm not a big fan of splicing a new stringer onto an old one. If the old one is PERFECT then go ahead but I've rarely seen one that was worth saving when you're as far down as you are now. To me saving a few feet of old stringer just ain't worth it.

CW

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

After looking at the transom area on the non-bilge side of each stringer, there is definitely rot there. The majority of the transom is in good shape. I was trying to figure out how to fix these small areas the best way. Then I looked at the engine placement and realized how snugly the stringers fit against the side of the engine.

This picture shows how close the stringer is to the engine:






This would make it very hard to access the bilge side of the stringer for tabbing in the new stringer. So I have decided to remove the engine. Since I am removing the engine, it won't be very hard to replace the transom wood core.


Hre is a picture of the transom rot area (notice the poor transom-to-hull joint):



The effort to remove the engine will be paid back doubly by making the repairs much easier.


I am going to use a 1-ton chain hoist from Harbor Freight ($45). For the gantry, I am going to use the swing set I built a few years ago for my kids. It's highly overbuilt, using 4x4s, 4x6s and everything is thru-bolted using 1/2" galvanized fasteners. The top bar is 10 feet off the ground so there is plenty of height, and the length is 10 feet so the trailer will easily fit between the supports.


After the engine is removed, there will be plenty of room to replace the stringers, deck, and transom core.


It looks like the manufacturer's philosophy was to assume no water was going to get into the non-bilge area under the deck because once water got into there it wasn't getting out. The deck tabbing to the hull separated along one side, allowing water to enter the area with the foam. The water then worked its way down to the transom end and was trapped against the transom. The glass joint between the transom and the hull (inside the boat) seems to be poorly done, which cracked easily and allowed water to enter the transom core (plywood).

Should I put drain holes to the bilge (limber holes I think they are called) when I redo the stringers?

Also, the engine is not mounted to the stringers, but to a separate pad which is plywood glassed to the hull. The plywood straddles the center of the bilge so water can flow under it. Unfortunately, only the top of the plywood is glassed, so the bottom absorbed water and is now a little soft. Looks like that will have to be redone also. How do I make sure the engine mount ends up in the proper place?

Here is a picture of the engine mount:





Finally, here is a picture of the inside of the transom:


It's a little hard to see, but notice that only the left and lower side of the picture has the wood core that is glassed. The other part has foam applied and then glassed over very lightly (I could push a screwdiver through it easily). At the top left of the picture you can also see the top edge of the wood core that is glassed over to the outer layer of fiberglass.



Steve

 

[rickryder]

Re: Floor replacement question

Sounds like the swing set will be a good gantry to pull the motor.

Big yes to limber holes so that if water does get below deck it has a way out to the bilge

Just take measurements where you engine mount is located or build a jig/template. A piece of thick cardboard or some 1/4" ply cut to fit between the stringers and butting against the transom....then mark your hole locations.... Lot's of measuring and documenting your stringer original layout will help out later on the rebuild. Lot's of pics to refer back to......I even printed some of the pics and wrote on measurements and notes

Once you get the transom opened up we can see how and what is was made from at the factory.


Oh and you can also...after the motor is out, lay a straight edge across the stringer tops and measure down for the height of the motor mount.

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

I'm ready to order the resin and cloth from US Composites.

This is the way I see it:

1) CSM: one layer on the bottom of the deck plywood and two layers on the top, pieces for capping the stringers, plus a little extra for a total of 30 yards of the 38" wide.

2) 1708: 5 yards of full width for the transom repair
100 feet of 12" wide for stringers and tabbing the perimeter of deck

3) 6oz cloth: one layer on top of the deck, 10 yards total

4) 2 5gal cans of general-purpose resin

5) fibers, cabosil, etc to make peanut butter

If I need more materials I can always order some more or buy it locally.

I have two questions::

1) Do I need to put a layer of CSM first under the 1708 for stringers and tabbing the deck? Or is 1 layer of 1708 alone enough?

2) Since the fiberglass cloth and CSM I am ordering are all 38" wide, do I try to stagger the joints on top of the deck so the two CSM layers and the 6oz cloth seams don't line up? Should I run the 6oz cloth perpendicular to the CSM layers?

Thanks
Steve

 

[Cadwelder]

Re: Floor replacement question

Question #1, 1708 has a layer of CSM sewn to it but, but I always use a layer of CSM down first anyway, (most others do also), I've seen it done both ways though..

Question #2 Staggering the joints on the CSM isn't a biggy since there are always lots of loose strands on the edges to "overlapp" a bit anyway, but I do like your idea on the 6 oz cloth.

Your material list looks fine to me.. good luck with your build

CW

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

Thanks, CW.

I picked up the 1-ton chain hoist from Harbor Freight today ($36 after 20% off coupon) and I'm making a sling for the engine. I'm hoping to pull the engine this weekend and then fab new stringers and transom core, grind off any excess glass, take measurements for the engine mounting, etc. The glass and resin won't arrive for about a week, so I'm trying to make efficient use of my time while I wait. This way hopefully I can start glassing as soon as the stuff arrives.

Steve

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

Today my son and I removed the engine after removing the outdrive yesterday. It was pretty easy, only took about 6 hours total to remove both. Now I can work on the transom and stringers easily.

I looked at the edge of the transom cutout for the outdrive to see how it was layered. The outside fiberglass skin is 1/2" thick! Then there is a wood core of 1" thick plywood. Finally, there is an additional piece of 1/2" plywood but only in the outdrive area. The inside fiberglass skin is very thin. The total thickness is 2" at the edge of the outdrive cutout.

Should I replace the wood the same way it was built, a 1" wood core (2 layers of 1/2" arauco plywood) everywhere and then a smaller piece of 1/2" plywood added in the outdrive area, or should I just make the whole core 1 1/2" thick ( 3 layers of 1/2" Arauco plywood)?

How thick should I make the inner fiberglass layer? The 1708 comes with a CSM layer attached, so how many layers of it should I use? The old inner layer was very thin, it's hard to even see it on the cutout edge.

Is it unusual to have the outer layer of fiberglass be 1/2" thick?

Steve

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

Here are a few pictures:

1) The Merc 120 engine hanging from the A-frame (swing set) and Harbor Freight 1-ton chain hoist:





2) The transom from inside the boat after removal of the outdrive and engine:





3) The outdrive cutout edge showing the transom layers:





Most of the transom wood ply core is in good shape, but since I have come this far I am going to replace the entire wood core. The transom glassing inside the boat around the wood core is poor in several areas, especially where it meets the hull outside the bilge area. This is where the wood rotted. The thickness of the inside skin over the ply seems to be very thin, but I'll know for sure when I remove it.

Steve

 

[KC DREW]

Re: Floor replacement question

Pretty good drawing! Not crued at all. Great info

 

[rickryder]

Re: Floor replacement question

Your transom thickness will need to be 2" thick when finished. It must be flat also all around your key hole so it will seal properly.

 

[62cruiserinc]

Re: Floor replacement question

I had been creating some new threads regarding my boat, but now I realize that the forum guidelines want me to keep the posting in one thread so everyone can follow things better. I will be posting in this thread from now on. Sorry about the extra threads.

Well, I just ordered the fiberglass, resin, etc from US Composites for a total of $750 (shipping included). Now I will have to wait until it arrives here in Lockport, NY , which should be about 5-6 business days according to USC. Meanwhile I will remove the transom core and prepare a new core of laminated 1/2" Arauco plywood. I also have to do some stuff around the house since I have been overly focused on the boat lately. Thankfully my son who is 16 is a great hands-on person and will be working with me side-by-side on the boat. The goal is to have the boat in the water for Independence Day.

One question: The boat is currently on the trailer, should I remove both of the old stringers at once or replace one at a time? Is there an issue with the hull shape distorting without any stringers? I will be walking inside the hull to remove and install the new stringers. Do I need to add additional bracing to keep the hull in the proper shape?

Thanks to everyone
Steve

 

[rickryder]

Re: Floor replacement question

A pic of how it sits on the trailer would be helpful If it's a good bunk trailer and supports the hull you might be just fine or just need a little extra support.