Force '89 125hp lacks power and top end speed

Gearhard

Seaman
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Apr 30, 2018
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54
No idle timing.
Static timing.

Thanks Jerry. I've been grasping at straws trying to figure out why this motor doesn't seem to perform as well as I think that it should, hoping maybe this was going to be the answer. Am I correct in thinking that other than setting carbs to cam position and timing at WOT, there's nothing that can be done to change performance?
 

Gearhard

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Apr 30, 2018
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Ok, I've done a drop cylinder test (by ear) and #'s 1 & 2 drop RPMs but doesn't seem as much as #' 3 & 4, but all seem to drop RPM. I replaced fuel pump diaphragm and gaskets. Old diaphragm was a little stretched but no perferations. Does the throttle roller normally get replaced as a part of maintenance? Could this be the cause of a poor performance issue? Thanks for your feeback!
 

The Force power

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Thanks Jerry. I've been grasping at straws trying to figure out why this motor doesn't seem to perform as well as I think that it should, hoping maybe this was going to be the answer. Am I correct in thinking that other than setting carbs to cam position and timing at WOT, there's nothing that can be done to change performance?

HERE'S A POST WRITTEN BY THE LATE FRANK A. follow this to the T do not skip any steps!!!


It is possible that although the triggers look the same you have one that is incorrect. If TDC occurs at the TDC mark and you can set the 28* WOT STATIC TIMING (plugs removed and wires shorted to ground). then the timing must be correct. If not you have a trigger problem,
It is also possible that the trigger magnets have shifted on the hub, but unlikely.

1.Disconnect the ball link to the carb cam at the timing tower. Disconnecting at the cam risks bending the cam. Move the cam away from the carb roller.
2. Loosen the screw(s) on the aluminum tie bar and let all carbs close completely, then tighten again.
3. Set the cam so that the scribed line is pointing directly at the black roller on the carb lever. If the cam has two closely spaced lines, set the black roller directly between them.
4. The black roller is held with an offset screw and nut. Loosen the nut and turn the screw until the black roller JUST touches the cam. Tighten the nut and re-attach the ball link maintaining the scribed line at the roller.
5. Adjust the ball link so that at full throttle the bottom carb butterfly opens substantially horizontally. Adjust the aluminum tie bar so all carb butterflies open equally at full throttle. They need not be perfect but should be rather close to horizontal for best performance.
6. Adjust timing to 30 degrees before top dead center at full throttle.
7. Adjust idle speed to 700-750 RPM in the water in forward gear. Do this with the screw on the bottom of the timing tower. Loosen the locknut and adjust. Screwing in increases idle speed. Do this in small increments and let the engine rev and adjust itself before the next adjustment. A little goes a long way here. When correct, tighten the nut. Note that the scribed line on the roller will now be (usually) below the black roller a bit.
8. NOW we adjust the mixture on the carbs. Set all low speed needles to about 1 1/4 turns out from lightly seated. Do not force as this will damage either the needles or the seats.
8A. With the engine idling in neutral, turn each the needles in equally about 1/8 turn at a time. Give the engine a couple of seconds between each adjustment to stabilize. Adjust until the engine either "sags" or stalls. Note this setting.
8B. Now go the opposite direction. Adjust until the engine runs rough, burbles, or stalls. Note this setting.
8C. Set all needles to the average between the two settings: That is, for example, if it stalled at 3/4 turn out and burbled at 1 1/4 out then set all needles to 1 turn out.
8D. Readjust idle speed to 700-750 RPM.
9. Take the boat out on the water and do a "hole shot"--Full throttle acceleration from a stop. If the engine "sags" then recovers and picks-up it is too lean. Open the needles about 1/16 turn at a time until the engine accelerates with no hesitation.
If the engine sputters or coughs or burbles, then clears itself and accelerates, it is too rich. Close the needles about 1/16 turn at a time until the engine accelerates smoothly.


10. I can NOT stress this enough! NEVER set the low speed needles less that 1 turns out no matter how poor the idle or acceleration. To do so will run the engine too lean and detonation and melted pistons at or near full throttle operation will result.
 

The Force power

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Ok, I've done a drop cylinder test (by ear) and #'s 1 & 2 drop RPMs but doesn't seem as much as #' 3 & 4, but all seem to drop RPM. I replaced fuel pump diaphragm and gaskets. Old diaphragm was a little stretched but no perferations. Does the throttle roller normally get replaced as a part of maintenance? Could this be the cause of a poor performance issue? Thanks for your feeback!


NO the roller is not a maintenance item, unless defective??
Quick question for you; at what RPM's are doing the "drop test" because the lower the Idle rpm's are, the better the results.

You can also unplug an additional cylinder and record your findings, try different multiple cylinders till you have it stall with the least amount of cylinders disconnected
 

Gearhard

Seaman
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Apr 30, 2018
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54
HERE'S A POST WRITTEN BY THE LATE FRANK A. follow this to the T do not skip any steps!!!


It is possible that although the triggers look the same you have one that is incorrect. If TDC occurs at the TDC mark and you can set the 28* WOT STATIC TIMING (plugs removed and wires shorted to ground). then the timing must be correct. If not you have a trigger problem,
It is also possible that the trigger magnets have shifted on the hub, but unlikely.
.

Thanks again Jerry. I have set, checked and re-checked the timing exactly as described in the procedure listed. It's not a very difficult process. What I have not done is verify that TDC is truly TDC. I have had to re-glue the flywheel magnets but felt that I replaced them very, very close to where it was placed previously, based on the dirt line, on the flywheel from the ends of the magnet. I will post the finding after I verify TDC.
 

Gearhard

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Apr 30, 2018
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Top Dead Center has been verified with a dowel rod being pushed out of the cylinder until movement appears to stop. Actually, there is about a 4 tooth range where as the rod moves negligibly before beginning to retreat back into the motor. Centering the flywheel between those 4 teeth and the timing pointer is directly on the TDC flywheel timing mark. I have trouble even getting on plane with the ladder (a small one) dragging in the water. I would definitely drown a skier before there was enough speed to get them out of the water. Running out of ideas faster than the boat will go...
 

jerryjerry05

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May 7, 2008
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18,075
You try running with the cover off?
Then try advancing the throttle by hand?
Is the motor revving up but not moving?(prop)
 

The Force power

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2,350
Thanks again Jerry. I have set, checked and re-checked the timing exactly as described in the procedure listed. It's not a very difficult process. What I have not done is verify that TDC is truly TDC. I have had to re-glue the flywheel magnets but felt that I replaced them very, very close to where it was placed previously, based on the dirt line, on the flywheel from the ends of the magnet. I will post the finding after I verify TDC.

I'm not Jerry (I wish I was that good)
 

Gearhard

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You try running with the cover off?
Then try advancing the throttle by hand?
Is the motor revving up but not moving?(prop)

Yes, it runs the same, cover on or off. Have not tried advancing the throttle by hand, but I can see throttle plates are fully open (horizontal) at full throttle. Tried different props and 15p is better than 17p, but neither has slippage like a bad hub.
 

Gearhard

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NO the roller is not a maintenance item, unless defective??
Quick question for you; at what RPM's are doing the "drop test" because the lower the Idle rpm's are, the better the results.

You can also unplug an additional cylinder and record your findings, try different multiple cylinders till you have it stall with the least amount of cylinders disconnected

Drop test is being done at 750-800 RPMS. Sorry, but what can I learn from a stall with the least number of cylinders disconnected? Not sure but my guess it that any two cylinders disconnected will cause a stall, but I'll try it and report the results.
 

Gearhard

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You can also unplug an additional cylinder and record your findings, try different multiple cylinders till you have it stall with the least amount of cylinders disconnected

Ok, I did another drop test, with the motor warmed up and at a low idle speed, and the majority of the time the motor would stall. Not always, but maybe 11 of 15 tries.
 

The Force power

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Ok, I did another drop test, with the motor warmed up and at a low idle speed, and the majority of the time the motor would stall. Not always, but maybe 11 of 15 tries.

What combination of Cylinders unplugged does it stall? & with what combination of Cylinders does it stay running?
What kind of spark-plugs are you using? are all plugs the same & do they burn/look the same?
 

Gearhard

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I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that pulling just one plug wire, on any cylinder, would cause the motor to stall. Could not pull more than one wire at a time.
 

The Force power

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that pulling just one plug wire, on any cylinder, would cause the motor to stall.

This in theory is not possible because killing one cylinder at the time should not stall the motor.......unless it ran only on one cylinder, but you say it stalls on any Cylinder.
(you have to realize; it's actually 4 motors in one fed by two Carburetors)

What about the Spark plugs ??

Hopefully Jerry / Nordin will pipe up as these guys really know their stuff
 

Gearhard

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This in theory is not possible because killing one cylinder at the time should not stall the motor.......unless it ran only on one cylinder, but you say it stalls on any Cylinder.
(you have to realize; it's actually 4 motors in one fed by two Carburetors)

What about the Spark plugs ??

Hopefully Jerry / Nordin will pipe up as these guys really know their stuff

Perhaps the idle was set too low? I actually tried about 15 times and it was very consistent. I even took a video while I did the test, but I don't that it can be uploaded. The motor was in a slow idle and took very little touch of the starter to restart each time that it stalled. Overall, the motor runs great at idle. The plugs may be a year old, but I don't remember replacing them this year. I'll try those next.
 

The Force power

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I'll ask one more time;
What kind of spark-plugs are you using? are all plugs the same & do they burn/look the same?
 

Gearhard

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I'll ask one more time;
What kind of spark-plugs are you using? are all plugs the same & do they burn/look the same?

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding about the plugs. They are all NGK BUHX, replaced together. #1 may be slightly fouled, but all were used for drop test.
 

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Nordin

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Have read through the whole thread now and first have you checked spark at all plugs with a timing light or with the plugs out and grounded?
Best is to check with a timing light and at the same time you check that it is firing at right time at each plug.
The timing light will work at 2 and 4 stroke but the tach if it has, shows wrong RPM if it is made for 4 strokers.
When checking spark with the plugs out and grounded you do not know if the spark is good enough to fire during compression.
If doing it with plugs out you have to check that it manage to jump spark at least 1/4 but 3/8 or up until 1/2 in would give sufficient results.
Imaging you have multiple issues, you have to verify spark at each plug under compression or in air it should jump spark 3/8 in.

The ignition system has two CDI modules and they can interfere with each other cause it is a blocking diod built in.
Also the rectifier can cause ignition issues.
Try with the rectifier disconnected.
 
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