Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

[Subliminal]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

What about your local news...they always do those pieces in the news where they go over a ridiculous situation such as this and let people know that this is even possible.

Or you could just move out of that stupid county...personally, I hate the thought of my tax dollars paying people working against me.

I'm the 4th generation in my house...my grandfather's father built it after he came over from Norway. Selling my house is not something I ever forsee doing...

...that is until they tell me my dog is illegal. That's pretty much the only thing I can think of.

 

[Kiwifisher]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Am I missing something here? As far as I can understand the extract from the following quote, you don't have to allow anyone to fish your pond. Tell 'em politely to PO.

"Pond owners who accept fish from the Conservation Department retain full rights to control access to their ponds. Accepting the free fish doesn't obligate them to allow fishing or other uses on their land by the public. However, ponds stocked by the Conservation Department are subject to provisions of the Wildlife Code of Missouri. The fish can't be bought or sold, and statewide fishing regulations must be observed. Those restrictions do not apply to pond owners who buy fish from commercial sources.

- Jim Low -
"

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

I think there are number of statements posted here, that are key items in the issue at hand.

First, cops of any type, usually don't know applicable laws in detail. They tend to be fairly well versed in things that they deal with constantly, but even then, they often don't know the more subtle issues involved. My guess is that the conservation officer that you spoke to, is incorrect about your requirement to allow people on your property.

The quoted conservation office letter, seems to back up the fact that you have no obligation to allow people on your property. I recommend that you either hire an attorney to review the matter, or do the homework yourself. Unless the conservation people can quote the law directly, I wouldn't take their word for anything.

I think the real issue and the real source of your problems, is that you have a piece of property that is located in the middle of a conservation area. Whether or not there is a stated plan to harass you is hard to say, but often times these things are made known in very subtle ways and you end up with an "institutional" state of mind within a group of people (the conservation dept), that suggests that giving you a hard time, is the right thing to do. Really, what they want, is for you to go away, so that they end up with your land.

Once again, I would assert my rights, by finding out what the law really says. I also would assert my rights as to bullets flying around my property. A lawyer may be of some help here too. If possible, I would send the state a bill for repairs to my property, every time damage to it ocurred. I would also formally put the state on notice, that I would hold it liable for for any personal injury and/or death resulting from its failure to control hunting resulting in gun shots on your property. A well written letter, citing any duties assigned to the state by law, sent Certified Mail, RRR, should suffice. On this issue, you don't even have to be completely right - unless there is a blanket prohibition on suing the state, there mere threat of doing it, may wake a few people up.

Until this matter is resolved, the one thing I would not do, is to allow people on my property. By doing so, you may end up with a problem. While I have no idea if this would truly create a continuing right of passage, you can bet some jack*** will make such a claim. In the mean time, I would cite the conservation office letter and/or whatever state law you can quote and put up "No Tresspassing" signs all over the place.



???

 

[j_martin]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Here's what I'd recommend, based on experience. I had a tax assessor and a zoning officer harassing the heck out of me. Then I did this. I haven't seen either one for years.

I don't think you'll get past step 4.

1. Establish that you do have a right to control and protect your land. It looks like the "law" being cited is being taken out of context, based on the encouragement for private stocking I saw in one post. Anyway, nail it down. Of course you have the right to protect the perimeter against small arms fire, even if it's accidental.

2. Do what you need to do. Fences, runoffs, etc.

3. When an enforcer comes out to deal with you, in a polite way, and with at least 2 witnesses, tell him you have something to say first. First make sure he notes the witnesses. Then tell him that you are giving him constructive notice that he may be about to violate your personal civil rights under cover of law. Then tell him that if he should do that, you intend to file suit against him and his personal property in the Federal District Court, persuant to Title 42 Section 1983. Tell him to write those numbers down, they're very important.

4. Say, OK sir, how may I help you? Odds are real good he'll just bail. If he argues about your legalese, tell him to take those numbers to the DA, his lawyer, or some other legal eagle and ask them what they mean.

5. If he would be so stupid to proceed to harrass you, you practically own his bank account, house, dog, or whatever you desire.

Here's the code.

Title 42 U.S.C. ? 1983. Every person who, under color or any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom or usage, of any State of Territory, subjects ... any citizen of the United States ... to the deprivation of any rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress.

Translated, that means that if an officer, or public employee, under cover of what he thinks is the law, violates your personal civil rights, you have grounds to attack his personal assets in Federal District Court. Cops who are taught this, usually by a citizen such as you, tend to be very polite and do their business in an orderly and legal way. It's almost like it was back before the riots of the 60's.

The doctrine of contructive notice is that the offender is assumed to have knowledge of the violation. That's why the witnesses and the notice. With that simple statement you notify him that you know what he's up to and you intend to use the full extent of the law to defend yourself, while leaving him defenseless if he should proceed.

hope it helps
John

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Back to the pond...

I talked to a friend in the conservation department strictly off the record and there is more a foot than I thought.

As I said earlier the state has greatly increased the size of the conservation area over the last decade and bought all the land around me and I am the only private land owner left. The land they have bought up was all farm land meaning no homes, buildings, etc. so they basically bought it by the acre at a fairly low price point. Since they expanded I've had a lot of problems with hunters during deer season. (My county has had the highest yield of deer in MO. the last few years.)

There is no longer a no hunting barrier between the hunters and my home and my house has been shot with a high power rifle twice in three years and last year someone shot a deer in my front yard and then didn't have the courage to pick it up. The state and I have had strong words more than once (pretty much on going) about them managing the hunters. If I let someone hunt on my land I am responsible for them and I expect the state to be held to that same level of responsibility.

According to the off the record conversation I have become a thorn in the side of the conservation department and it was hinted that just maybe that is the cause of the current situation.

So, have they made an offer to buy your property? If they have and you refused the offer, then you have your answer. If they're trying to expand this conservation area and you are the only holdout, the harassment will continue until you finally give in and sell the property to them.

It's an old, old story. They will continue to make you uncomfortable by enforcing every possible thing until you give up in defeat.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Like I said, that's what they're trying to do...get you to sell. And they won't stop until you do, I'm afraid. I've seen it happen in a number of places. It sucks, but that's what's going on. It has nothing to do with your pond. It has nothing to do with hunters shooting in the surrounding woods.

They won't do anything about it except to harass you until you finally sell the property to them. You can fight it, but they'll end up owning it.

I've watched a number of people try to hold on to their property when the government wanted it added to some conservation area. None succeeded, but they drove themselves nuts trying.

Stop and think about it before you decide to fight them. They will win. It may take years, but they'll grind you down.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Just out of curiosity, when was the first time they tried to get you to sell - how long ago?



???

 

[DrWiffel]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

What if you just post a sign saying that all the fish are poisoned and will cause leprosy if caught?

I don't blame you on this one and I would talk to your local state representative, I'm sure they'd be pissed that the conservation office is doing this to you (Edit: Unnecessary political comment - QC). You do live in Missouri, and from my understanding, down there someone?s private land is someone?s land, and you better stay off if you don't want to disappear/get shot.

 

[wajajaja02]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

you could put a bull to pasture around the pond and dare anyone to fish , if they can out run the bull.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

I think Ijust came up with the answer to your troubles - plant poison ivy, poison oak and poison sumac all around the pond. Put a ring about 100 feet deep around it. Then put up big signs that says what is there, with a great big disclaimer that says, "ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!"





???

 

[marlboro180]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

I think Ijust came up with the answer to your troubles - plant poison ivy, poison oak and poison sumac all around the pond. Put a ring about 100 feet deep around it. Then put up big signs that says what is there, with a great big disclaimer that says, "ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!"





???

Sounds good to me@@

 

[scipper77]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

I don't think that destroying your property is much of a solution because it ruins it for you too. You could however get a guard dog and a fence. Even that sounds like a law suit waiting to happen though.

 

[Jakebob]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Did they ever come back? I doubt they will. They just wanted to prove that they were "right" so they reported you and you got the letter. I wouldn't do anything. I doubt they are going to push it. Some people just have to be right and make you know it.

I would make everyone I know aware of the law. If you really want to make a point, I would go to council meetings and bring it up over and over and over.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

I fear you may be right.

It's a sad business. One guy I know kept trying and trying. And the state kept finding one violation or another on his property, ranging from improper storage of used motor oil to failure to maintain one thing or another.

He tried the court system, but all that did was cost him money and help pay the lawyer's car payments. In the end, he took the offer and got out, but he was all worn out from it. It was very sad. He admitted that it had all just not been worth it.

Ignore the bogus legal advice people have given you here. All that will do is make them more determined to get you off that property. If anyone knows of a case where someone has gotten the state to leave them alone on the property the state wanted, I've not heard of it.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Is this in the Emmet & Leah Seat Memorial Conservation Area? If so, I see that one of the private inholdings has a no hunting zone around it. There's a map of the area at this link:

http://mdc.mo.gov/documents/area_brochures/8026map.pdf

If not, it must be one of the smaller CAs in that county.

 

[Huron Angler]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Bubba you have my empathy in this situation. Such a hassle for a man who obviously pays his share in property taxes to have to deal with

We used to have a similar problem in northern Michigan since we have some land on Lake Huron that surrounds a small trout stream.

People would show up at all hours of the day/night to illegally take fish by snagging, netting, etc and leave a huge mess of beer cans and such.

My grandpa didn't hesitate to head out there with his 12 guage and let folks know that it's private property. The folks that own the other side lived near Detroit at the time so he was always on hiw own. Never did get much help from the state either.

In addition an illegal dam was constructed so that some folks upstream could convert their "floodwaters" area into some sort of shallow, muddy lake and docks could be used.

I was told by a very experienced property attorney that the only way to get rid of it is to have it "disappear" somehow, since the state wouldn't be willing to pay anything for the removal.

I have to agree with CATransplant as far as their motivation, I sure hope you can find a reasonable person(congressman) to tell them to back off and give you some peace and quiet out there. Good luck to ya!

 

[CATransplant]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Bad news all around. When I saw that map, I figured that was yours. It's a shame is what it is, but I doubt you're going to get any happier over time. Find out what they're willing to pay, then insist on getting more than that. If they really, really want you gone, they'll make a better offer, and I think they really, really want that last private inholding.

Then, when you go looking for a new place, be sure to find one that doesn't have any conservation area anywhere near it. That's a big one you're in, and they don't like it when there are inholdings, especially in large CAs.

Get your lawyer involved in negotiating the amount they're willing to pay. That's my advice, but plan on moving sometime soon. Rotten deal!

 

[WAVENBYE2]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

1) go to walmart and buy some goldfish/aka carp.
2) toss them in, watch them get eaten
3) you have now stocked your pond with commercially acquired fish, copy your walmart receipt and you are good to go!

just do as above. go buy a bunch of fish and show the receipt to the conservies. then it's privately stocked.

I was thinking the same thing until I ran across these comments, just stock your own pond and end of story, privately stocked pond.

 

[achris]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Have I missed something? Why are they allowing hunting in a 'conservation area'? Isn't that contrary to conservation?

We are getting more and more areas locally that are 'marine conservation areas', and they are definite NO TAKE zones.

I would have thought being smack bang in a conservation area would have protected you from being shot at!

Chris........

 

[marlboro180]

Re: Forced to allow trespassing on my property...

Have I missed something? Why are they allowing hunting in a 'conservation area'? Isn't that contrary to conservation?

I would have thought being smack bang in a conservation area would have protected you from being shot at!

Chris........

Chris,
Yeah , seems contradictory to hunt in a conservation area to the uninitiated . However, there are groups such as Ducks Unlimited, Ruffed Grouse Society, etc. that support huge swaths of conservation// hunting land here in the states,( and Canada) Educating people/ owners/ govt. entities, on better stewardship of the land, better wildlife management, etc. Not entirely altruistic as some of those areas under conservation management can be hunted.

Bubba - Do you know if they ( any hunting/conservation groups) funding any of the Seat conservation area?