Forward/Reverse backward

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

O.K. Chris, I checked it out, the shift is as you described. When I go 'forward' on the controller the cable pulls forward and vice-versa on 'reverse'. Can I assume this narrows the problem down to the lower unit as everyone else has said? And have you ever done this? Thanks again for the input!

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

That now positively eliminates the control box from our inquiries. And it didn't take long to check or cost anything. We would have looked a bit silly if it was the problem, and we'd had you pulling the lower unit off before checking it, yes?

So, the problem is with the lower unit. Either internally or the connection with the shift shaft. My next step would be to remove the lower unit, set it on my bench, and check that it's selecting gears the right way. Do you know how to remove the lower unit?

Chris....

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

That now positively eliminates the control box from our inquiries. And it didn't take long to check or cost anything. We would have looked a bit silly if it was the problem, and we'd had you pulling the lower unit off before checking it, yes?

So, the problem is with the lower unit. Either internally or the connection with the shift shaft. My next step would be to remove the lower unit, set it on my bench, and check that it's selecting gears the right way. Do you know how to remove the lower unit?

Chris....

I consider that a loaded question! LOL

In theory, yes. I have read a lot on here, seen lots of pics (THANKS to iboats members who post AWESOME pics!) and I have a manual and the correct tools. Of course, that does NOT mean I will successfully do it w/out screwing up, but I am going to try! The target date is next Friday. I (FINALLY) have a completely free weekend and I am going to play hooky Friday and go for it! Plan to go Wed. and get the gaskets for the pump (I have the impeller and lower unit oil) Plan for me is as follows (please point out anything I am planning wrong!):

1. Remove lower unit (following steps in manual)
2. R/R impeller
3. Deal with shift issue
4. assuming #3 goes to plan, replace lower unit
5. "Sea trial"!

In #3, I REALLY only have one question: Will the shift shaft turn 180 degrees, or does it simply turn one way or another? I.E. is it a limited range that I simply "flip" the lower rod from say 90 degress starboard to 90 degrees port? (Keep in mind I am just using "90 degrees" as a reference, I have no idea how many degrees it will or will not travel! Also keep in mind that I haven't seen this myself, only pictures in books and on the internet! I will be taking beaucoup pics myself and will try to post (if someone on here will tell me how!) both for info AND so if I get "lost" or "stuck" I have SOME reference! Thanks again for your insight, it means a lot to me!

Also, one stupid question: do you pull the prop before doing this just to avoid possibly damaging it? Or is there a mechanical reason for it?

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

That now positively eliminates the control box from our inquiries. And it didn't take long to check or cost anything. We would have looked a bit silly if it was the problem, and we'd had you pulling the lower unit off before checking it, yes?

So, the problem is with the lower unit. Either internally or the connection with the shift shaft. My next step would be to remove the lower unit, set it on my bench, and check that it's selecting gears the right way. Do you know how to remove the lower unit?

Chris....

This is where I could get into trouble. I'm not sure what IS the "right" way!

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the book about this issue or how to resolve it....I'm kind of just going on everything in here about it.

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

This is where I could get into trouble. I'm not sure what IS the "right" way!

Unfortunately, there is nothing in the book about this issue or how to resolve it....I'm kind of just going on everything in here about it.

And that's a good plan...

We will guide you as best we can.

Which manual are you using? (please don't say seloc or clymer)

You will hear a lot of people say to put the control in forward when removing and replacing the leg (I call the lower unit a 'leg', it's a hangover from working on I/Os). I DON'T put it in forward, and for a very good reason. Basically the shift shaft can only be in one place if the leg is in neutral (and you will know where that is when you find it), whereas in forward the shift shaft can 'float'.

Some shift shafts can move quite a bit, depends on the model you have (I know yours is a 1973, 50hp). But I work on a lot of different engines and remembering which one has which model leg is difficult and unnecessary.

The other thing to remember is that the shift shaft is VERY tight to turn. You will not be able to do it by hand, you'll need a tool (I have an old upper shift shaft with a handle bent into it, but I doubt you have one laying around). So you have to use something else. I have in the past used an adjustable shifter on the splines with good success. Leave the prop on and take the leg off. Once the leg is off (at this point it doesn't matter what gear you have it in) put it in a stand or vice so it is secure. Turn the prop to see which gear it is currently in. If it turns freely, it's in neutral. If it turns clockwise but ratchets and locks anti-clockwise, it's in forward. If it locks in both directions, it's in reverse. If it's in neutral try and turn the shift shaft ANTI-CLOCKWISE to get it into forward. You feel the shaft click and it will then keep turning quite a lot (and that's why I leave it in NEUTRAL to replace the leg). If you turn it back to the neutral position, and keep turning clockwise, it will click onto reverse.

Once you have verified that it's going into the right gear when you turn it, put it in NEUTRAL, the control box in neutral and fit it back on....

Chris.........

One last question... just to rule out something else. The prop is a right hand prop, yes? (Viewed from the back, turns clockwise for forward).

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

And that's a good plan...

We will guide you as best we can.

Which manual are you using? (please don't say seloc or clymer)

Ummmm, errrrrr, *sheepish shrug*

clymer?

I'm guessing I'm gonna get a smack and a "bad dog" finger wag?

I did try to ask in this post but no one chimed in!

Do I have to get the Merc one FROM merc? I searched on here and don't see it...Although I'm pretty stupid and could have missed it...

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

One last question... just to rule out something else. The prop is a right hand prop, yes? (Viewed from the back, turns clockwise for forward).

Yes.

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

And that's a good plan...

We will guide you as best we can.

Which manual are you using? (please don't say seloc or clymer)

You will hear a lot of people say to put the control in forward when removing and replacing the leg (I call the lower unit a 'leg', it's a hangover from working on I/Os). I DON'T put it in forward, and for a very good reason. Basically the shift shaft can only be in one place if the leg is in neutral (and you will know where that is when you find it), whereas in forward the shift shaft can 'float'.

Some shift shafts can move quite a bit, depends on the model you have (I know yours is a 1973, 50hp). But I work on a lot of different engines and remembering which one has which model leg is difficult and unnecessary.

The other thing to remember is that the shift shaft is VERY tight to turn. You will not be able to do it by hand, you'll need a tool (I have an old upper shift shaft with a handle bent into it, but I doubt you have one laying around). So you have to use something else. I have in the past used an adjustable shifter on the splines with good success. Leave the prop on and take the leg off. Once the leg is off (at this point it doesn't matter what gear you have it in) put it in a stand or vice so it is secure. Turn the prop to see which gear it is currently in. If it turns freely, it's in neutral. If it turns clockwise but ratchets and locks anti-clockwise, it's in forward. If it locks in both directions, it's in reverse. If it's in neutral try and turn the shift shaft ANTI-CLOCKWISE to get it into forward. You feel the shaft click and it will then keep turning quite a lot (and that's why I leave it in NEUTRAL to replace the leg). If you turn it back to the neutral position, and keep turning clockwise, it will click onto reverse.
Once you have verified that it's going into the right gear when you turn it, put it in NEUTRAL, the control box in neutral and fit it back on....

Chris.........

One last question... just to rule out something else. The prop is a right hand prop, yes? (Viewed from the back, turns clockwise for forward).

O.K. So if I read you right, the shift shaft WILL turn 180 degrees, so in theory, if I begin turning COUNTER clockwise, and I'm in forward, then as I keep coming around, when I hit nuetral 180 degrees from where I started, I am "reversed" from where I began, Then if I were to turn it COUNTER clockwise AGAIN (just enough to go into gear), I'd shift into reverse, then back clockwise to neutral, then back clockwise to forward, etc, etc, etc... That is what I was HOPING for. In theory, I turn it 180 degrees, remount it, and we are all good in tha hood.

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

I have in the past used an adjustable shifter on the splines with good success.

You will have to enlighten me: What is an adjustable shifter? Can I buy/make one? I AM nervous about screwing this part up, several people have commented they use channel locks/vise grips with a towel in the clamps, but I always seem to screw stuff like that up...

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

You will have to enlighten me: What is an adjustable shifter?

O.K. So if I read you right, the shift shaft WILL turn 180 degrees, so in theory, if I begin turning COUNTER clockwise, and I'm in forward, then as I keep coming around, when I hit neutral 180 degrees from where I started, I am "reversed" from where I began,

Not right at all... The cam is not like that... It only has one end that selects gears. I have been thinking about your problem quite a bit, and have come to a couple of conclusions. Do you know if the gearbox has been opened in the past? And if it has, there is a possibility that someone put the shift cam in upside down. That would explain what's going on... It's not a disaster, yet. If the new control box has 2 positions for the shift cable, then let's use the other one. That will then give you back the gears being selected correctly....

Then if I were to turn it COUNTER clockwise AGAIN (just enough to go into gear), I'd shift into reverse, then back clockwise to neutral, then back clockwise to forward, etc, etc, etc... That is what I was HOPING for. In theory, I turn it 180 degrees, remount it, and we are all good in tha hood. ...

No... doesn't work like that... I'll try and dig out a picture of the cam, or draw one for you. I think once you see how the cam looks you'll understand what you're doing a lot better.

Chris......

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

Do you know if the gearbox has been opened in the past? And if it has, there is a possibility that someone put the shift cam in upside down. That would explain what's going on... It's not a disaster, yet. If the new control box has 2 positions for the shift cable, then let's use the other one. That will then give you back the gears being selected correctly....

I DO NOT know. This shift cam idea has been proposed to me by two other people. I have looked at the schematic in my (apparently crappy Clymer) book, and IDK if I have the tools/expertise/intelligence to go that far with this thing! Wouldn't this involve taking the prop shaft out of the gear housing? My book says I would need a puller from Mercury just to get started if so. Also, I'd get into setting backlash, and I really don't think I comprehend what all that means!

I DO know from tearing apart the control box that it DOES NOT have 2 positions for the shift cable.

As I said, I had one shop tell me it sounded like I had the wrong control box, but they shot me a price of "around" $550!

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

No... doesn't work like that... I'll try and dig out a picture of the cam, or draw one for you. I think once you see how the cam looks you'll understand what you're doing a lot better.

Chris......

May help me. I have the pics from the manual, but it's hard for me to understand how it works just looking at the exploded view.

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

In my head, I have two ideas of what I was hoping. The first one is the 180 degree turnaround, which I explained and you say no. The other was that the shifter rotates back and forth a limited # of degrees from a fixed point, the fixed point being neutral. If this is the case, then I further extrapolated in my head that I should be able to shift it into 'forward' on the controller (which at this point shifts it into reverse) remove the lower unit, move the shifter from reverse to forward, then reinstall, and now the lower unit and the shifter are in the same position. What I CAN'T make work in my head is whether the thing would shift AT ALL if this is what I did. The hopeful part of me says yes, but the pratical part of me says no, when I try to shift, the controller will be pulling the shifter, but the wrong direction, i.e. there is no travel, it is already as far as it will go. I have a feeling this is what you are trying to explain to me....If that is the case, then I still feel a little screwed. Don't feel confident enough to tackle pulling the prop shaft, I'd have to take it somewhere, and they will either gouge me, or tell me they won't do it, or that won't fix it etc, etc.

*SIGH*

And all of this so I can sell the boat and buy a whole new array of problems in the next boat I want....LOL.

Really, I need to just man up I guess and pull it off and get started. I don't want to try and sell it like this, it feels unethical and I'd worry about someone getting hurt.

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

In my head, I have two ideas of what I was hoping. The first one is the 180 degree turnaround, which I explained and you say no. The other was that the shifter rotates back and forth a limited # of degrees from a fixed point, the fixed point being neutral.

That's a lot closer to how it works.

If this is the case, then I further extrapolated in my head that I should be able to shift it into 'forward' on the controller (which at this point shifts it into reverse) remove the lower unit, move the shifter from reverse to forward, then reinstall, and now the lower unit and the shifter are in the same position. What I CAN'T make work in my head is whether the thing would shift AT ALL if this is what I did.

If you do this, there is a high possibility that you like bend or break something else in the shift system.

The hopeful part of me says yes, but the pratical part of me says no, when I try to shift, the controller will be pulling the shifter, but the wrong direction, i.e. there is no travel, it is already as far as it will go. I have a feeling this is what you are trying to explain to me....If that is the case, then I still feel a little screwed. Don't feel confident enough to tackle pulling the prop shaft, I'd have to take it somewhere, and they will either gouge me, or tell me they won't do it, or that won't fix it etc, etc.

*SIGH*

And all of this so I can sell the boat and buy a whole new array of problems in the next boat I want....LOL.

Really, I need to just man up I guess and pull it off and get started. I don't want to try and sell it like this, it feels unethical and I'd worry about someone getting hurt.

You sound sensible... If you sell a boat with the control system working backwards and someone does get hurt you may find yourself with a problem, yes.

Now, man up and pull that damn leg off!!!

 

[Chris1956]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

There are two neutrals. One allows for correct shifting and the other causes forward and reverse to be reversed. Forward gear is the lowest point on the shift cam. So turn the shift shaft CCW until the motor goes into forward, and continue to turn the shift shaft until you hit neutral and it clicks into the neutral detent. Now reinstall the gearcase.

If you turn the shift shaft CCW and you find reverse, the shifter orientation is correct and something else is wrong.

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

.... Forward gear is the lowest point on the shift cam. So turn the shift shaft CCW until the motor goes into forward, and continue to turn the shift shaft until you hit neutral and it clicks into the neutral detent. Now reinstall the gearcase....

That's what I was trying to say...

This is the picture of the shift cam and cam follower.... This may make it easier to visualize...

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

There are two neutrals. One allows for correct shifting and the other causes forward and reverse to be reversed. Forward gear is the lowest point on the shift cam. So turn the shift shaft CCW until the motor goes into forward, and continue to turn the shift shaft until you hit neutral and it clicks into the neutral detent. Now reinstall the gearcase.

If you turn the shift shaft CCW and you find reverse, the shifter orientation is correct and something else is wrong.

AHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Between the two of you I FINALLY understand. It is coming off on FRIDAY, May 7th, 2010. STAY TUNED to watch the hilarity ensue! Because I PROMISE you, if there is a way to screw this up, I WILL find it! Should be a barrel of laughs!

And I'm taking pictures, if anyone can explain to me how to upload them (or is there a thread about that? Let me do a search....)

Thanks for ALL your help. I have been out of town the last two days, and I can't get this off my mind! LOL! I HAVE to do it now, achris challenged my manhood!

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!

For ONCE in my life, something worked out!

For those of you who like stories, here ya go:
Come home today (got home a little earlier than usual) intending to mow the yard. Went by the parts house and picked up a can of penetrating oil to spay on all the bolts of my lower unit, b/c I have NO idea how long it's been since it was off (I KNOW it has been 4 yrs. minimum). Spray it down, fill up my lawnmower with gas, add some sea foam to both, then decide, what the heck, I'm gonna see if I can get that screw out of the trim tab. (that screw looked AWFUL, the cap is missing, so that sucker had like, nine miles of rust everywhere...I assumed it was gonna be problem #1!) It breaks right loose!
So then, I'm like, well, lets spray those nuts down under the unit and I'll tackle this Friday like I been planning. I spray 'em, then I look at them real good, and they look really clean. So I figure, what the heck, I'm here now, and THEY pop right off. Well now I'm kind of on a roll! So I loosen the top nuts thinking, well it's prolly locked up anyway, and BOOM! That sucker drops right down. So there I am, holding a lower unit!
So NOW I'm like, well hell I'm going after the shift problem, I feel pretty confident I can handle the impeller. So, following Chris 1956 directions, I turn the shift shaft CCW. It goes like 100 degrees easily then CHUNK! into gear...but what gear?!?!? That's the MILLION $$$ question...well, it was FORWARD! So I CHUNK! another detent into, YEP neutral, and CHUNK, once more, I'm in Reverse! CHUNK! back to neutral, and I can't wait, I mount it back up (goes right in, no wiggle, no fuss!) and SHAZAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have liftoff!!!!! Forward on the box is, that's right, FORWARD!!!! and so on and so forth! Cannot BEGIN to describe the feeling!!!!!!! Whip that sucker off, replace the impeller, (wear plates were shiny and bright, no pitting, no indication of problems) BUT, fair warning, I did not realize the impeller was, like TOO BIG. you have to do what the book says, line it all up (make sure the key is in, the impeller turning turns the drive shaft) then TWIST the drive shaft WHILE pushing down on the housing and BING, she's in!
Needless to say, putting her back on was now a LITTLE more challenging, turning the driveshaft got me out of whack a little, and all of the sudden , with that new impeller in there, the driveshaft is MUCH harder to turn, BUT, I shimmy shammed her a couple of times a BINGO, she's in! (YES I greased her up!) NO I DID NOT beat on it to force it in!
BOOM! Shift like she's supposed to! Gotta get lower unit lube tomorrow, then she's going for a sea trail! Let you know how it ended up tomorrow! VERY excited and a HUGE thank you to the two Chris', couldn't have done it without you!!!!!!

 

[Jacket4life]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

*****UPDATE**********

O.K.

Got a set of muffs so I could run the motor in my yard. Everything was great. Fired right up, prop turning correct direction in respective gears, let it run about 10 mins. Really happy. Thanks AGAIN to the two Chris'. Without their help I'd have paid a lot of money to get something I could do myself done by someone else.

Hauled it to my parents place (about 1:30 away). Lost a trailer tire, but whole different story, there!

Got to the ramp, backed her in, and she doesn't want to run right. Went through every step I've done running it before: squeezed my bulb until hard, choked, and it started on about the third turn, ran about 5 seconds and died. Normally just fires up and runs. A little rough until it's warm, but runs. Well, kept hammering away with the starter. It would run 5-10 seconds and die, but would only run with cold start lever all the way up. Kept going, b/c it kept running a little longer each time. Finally stayed running 2-3 minutes (sounded like crap) and I decided to run it and see what happened. (Ramp was deserted, so I figured worst case I'd just load it back up if it died. It would not run at all if I backed down on my cold start, so I opened her up in forward and it bogged and sputtered, but would go bout 10 mph wide open. Kept opening up and going back to neutral, and after bout 5 minutes, all of the sudden she just took off! Ran like a dream, would idle perfectly, shifted great, water coming from my telltale, all good. Ran bout half the tank of gas out. Figured maybe it blew some trash out of the carbs and was now all good.

Next morning, same thing. Hard to sart cold, spluttered kicked and moaned for 5 mins or so, then BAM, off she goes.

Questions:
1. Ppl here and others I've talked to say these are "cold-natured" motors. True?

2. What should be my next step? The gas I was running was regular grade ethanol (nowhere around me sells "straight" gas) that was about 45 days old. On the advice of ppl on iboats, I added Sea-Foam. Should I try another tank of gas, Premium, and see what results I get? Also, I'm using Mec oil, 50:1, on the advice that it's an older motor and needs more oil. Is this my problem???

3. Plugs were new late last year. Replace them again? Which are the right ones? There was a thread on here several weeks ago debating plugs, but not sure which are the correct ones for my motor.

4. Carbs were done by a shop 2 years ago. Do them again? Where to buy carb kits if yes?

Thanks for any and all input!

 

[achris]

Re: Forward/Reverse backward

...
Questions:
1. Ppl here and others I've talked to say these are "cold-natured" motors. True?

Yes, these engines are not happy cold. They like a lot of choke until they warm up.

2. What should be my next step? The gas I was running was regular grade ethanol (nowhere around me sells "straight" gas) that was about 45 days old. On the advice of ppl on iboats, I added Sea-Foam. Should I try another tank of gas, Premium, and see what results I get? Also, I'm using Mec oil, 50:1, on the advice that it's an older motor and needs more oil. Is this my problem???

50:1 is the correct ratio for your engine, regardless of age. And I doubt this is the problem.

3. Plugs were new late last year. Replace them again? Which are the right ones? There was a thread on here several weeks ago debating plugs, but not sure which are the correct ones for my motor.

Replaced last year, they should be ok... The correct plugs for your engine are NGK BUHW-2.

4. Carbs were done by a shop 2 years ago. Do them again? Where to buy carb kits if yes?

Carbs should be ok... Unless you're using very dirty fuel you should only need to clean them out every 5 -10 years...

Thanks for any and all input!

At the age of your engine, what I would look at is the fuel pump...

Chris........