Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

[Lundman]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

He'll sell you where he has the best deal...for himself. None of his statements on the Etech are true.

Merc is part of the Brunswick Corporation's ALMOST monopoly of the boating industry.

That's pretty typical of salesmen,isn't it? Try to sell you
what you don't want. I guess I will just have to tell him;
"If you won't give me the E-TEC Evinrude,it will be 'No Sale'" There are times you just have to put your foot down,and say to them that this is how it's going to be
or I take my business elsewhere.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

I'm not saying 4 strokes are bad motors.They are fine motors but require more service than a 2 stroke.And as it stands right now Etecs are much cleaner than a 4 stroke.
I'm not sure what the term is but I'll call it reciprocating mass.(the moving parts of a motor)A 4 cylinder 2 stroke
has 4 pistons and 4 rods that's it for reciprocating parts.
A 4 stroke has 4 pistons,4 rods,16 valves not to mention
all the other moving parts involved with operating the valves.All the reciprocating parts must change directions at the end of each of their strokes another words they stop at the end of the stroke then must accelerate to speed only to stop at the end of the stroke
and do it all over again.This produces amazing stress and WEAR.There is no way a 4 stroke is even in the same ball park with a 2 stroke when it comes to wear and normal rebuild intervals.

 

[deejaycee_2000]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

that E-tec 3 year service schedule is based on 50 hours a year of use, at 50 hours a year that yammie could go the distance with ease. how ever to many folks are just gonna neglect it till it breaks then whine.
however I just ordered a 175 E-tec so I can see if it will break.
I told the dealer,a long time friend, I was gonna break his motor .
Ron said no worries ya got 3 years of warrenty.
I just hope it puts my 18ft hydra sports in the low 70's anyway
most the 4 stroke failures I have seen were customer induced just like most all the two stroke failures were so not much has changed.
the only odd thing we have seen with the four strokes so far is the piston rings tend to rotate and the gaps will line up and it will start "making" oil.
I hope one day they will pin the ringslike a two stroke and eliminate that as an issue.
we have found that if you get water in the fuel and stick an exhaust valve on a V6 it will set you back about 7500 dollars.
by the same token I am replacing 2 200 HPDI and 2 Z300 HPDI powerheads due to water in the oil. costs just over 16,000 dollars for each pair.
all of the above failures,except the ring issue, were customer induced.
water in the fuel or oil IS NOT a warrenty issue.

Damn .... Rodbolt that is expensive, I told my yamaha tech about this and he was dumb struck .... was thinking about getting a 300 hpdi, now i am reconcidering .... how the hell do they get water in the oil?

 

[deejaycee_2000]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

I think I will stick with my 2-strokes yamaha's ..... they are much faster anyway .... water cops tried to cath me again last weekend with their 50hp 2-stroke yummy on a 4 meter inflatable, they couldn't catch me with my 30hp yummy on a 3.1 meter inflatable test boat ......

 

[JRJ]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

You should check some salt water forums before you buy a 300 hpdi.

 

[croSSed]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Two-stroke all the way. I wish I could give BRP a standing "O" for their eTec line of engines. I'm kinda prejudiced here, but to me part of the definition of an "outboard" is that it is a 2 stroke motor. A 4 stroke, ie., car engine, will NEVER push one of MY boats. So there!
:|

TG

 

[Lundman]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Two-stroke all the way. I wish I could give BRP a standing "O" for their eTec line of engines. I'm kinda prejudiced here, but to me part of the definition of an "outboard" is that it is a 2 stroke motor. A 4 stroke, ie., car engine, will NEVER push one of MY boats. So there!
:|
AMEN,Brother!

TG

 

[Lowranger]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

I love the smell of two-stroke in the morning. It smells like...VICTORY !

 

[swist]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Well the EPA is going to make this decision for you, sooner or later. You will only be able to buy a heavy complicated 2-stroke or a heavy complicated 4-stroke. The other so-called important differences being touted here are mere noise in the scheme of things.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

please buy a Z300, your local tech may need the extra christmas money
actually if set up and correctly maintained FOR the conditions its used under most the Z300 issues are about resolved.
they DO NOT like extended trolling periods for tuna or rockfish, neither did the Z250 or Z200.
if you do it you will find spark plug life drops to under 100 hours and O2 sensor cleaning periods, if applicable, needs to be shortened to every 75 hours.
the most common water intrusion point for the remote oil tank is bad orings on the remote tank fill cap,loose cap, or left off cap.
the Z300's I did had to have been sabotage as they had no remote fills and had at least 2 gallons of water in each tank.
the pair of Z200's the guy left the fill caps loose and rainwater got in the remotes and was transfered to the engine tank where the water was then gravity fed to the engine oil pump which injected water instead of oil.
draw back to the Z motors is that water is also fedd to the VST via a small electric oil pump where it creates havoc with the fuel system just before the reciprocating assy fails.
like I say, most the failures I see are customer induced
so far I like my 175 E-tec, I just hope the weather allows me to take it out one more weekend before I head south.

 

[Pescadora]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Sometimes I get a chuckle with this 4-stroke vs 2 Stroke stuff. Having run both in many applications, including GP Motorcycles, some things seem to float to the top no matter what - no matter where.

On the road course circuits most DOHC shim spaced 4-stroke Inline 4-cyl ran 8-10,000rpm all day long, all season long. Pushing big wind loads at the century and a half mark. Basically stock, out of the box production motors. The powerhead on a Yammie F150 looks remarkably like the old endurance racers of the 80's (dating myself here).

My TZ250G wore out the pistons in 360 miles. Roughly three sprint races. Max. And that only after some very special pre-race longevity treatments.

However, there are issues in a marine environment. Not enough heat for one. Too much weight on the transom for another. I own a Yammie F150 because I like the design. But I would buy an E-Tec also. What's a couple of G's.

BTW...262 hours in the first 5 months on the F150. No plugs, no belts, no bullsheet. Five quarts of Valvoline 10-40 and a filter every 100hrs. Gear lube too. Total cost to me - maybe $75 altogether. Nothing really wrong with the oil in 100hrs...except too much condensation (not enough heat - remember?).

Definitely, definitely do fuel filtration. No matter what motor. Installing a RACOR 10 micron unit pre-motor next spring. I'm lucky the 416 gallons I burned this year were kind to me.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

dude ya outta look at the pistons on the F150. what a work of art, they cut down the skirts better than any "slipper" piston we ever built.
only thing they lack is gas pirting.
yes that F150, if propped and loaded correctly, will do thousands of hours above 5K.

 

[Pescadora]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Hmmm.... funny you mentioned skirts, when I didn't. Maybe you played in that game too. The G's made a lot of power - around 68hp from 250cc, but they were not exactly long-lived. Pistons in factory form would *maybe* last 120 miles. One event, no practice. The secret was to make them look used before you spun them a single revolution.

Some of my peers thought I was crazy when I would take a brand new piston out of the box and have at the skirt with a bastard mill file. Fail to do that and here come the cracks. Intake side only, courtesy of that huge port.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

you misunderstand. we dont cut anything off the diameter we just made the skirt very short.
but we winged it and were not looking for long life just a 1/4 milepass.
but the forged pistons in the F150 are an artwork.
the F150 and the F225 will survive more hours than I care to discuss above 5000 RPM.
its amazing but they do it.
I never ever thought they would.
I will be the first to admit, I am die hard old school 2 stroke.
full load full RPM, keep it cool, keep the correct oil/fuel and fuel oil/air mix and that two stroker will crank 5K longer than you will imagine.
however
in the past 10 years I have seen,personally , v6 yamaha 4 stokes go over 4ooo hours with over 2500 of those hours above 5000 RPM.
in fact the only 4 strokes we have problems with is those that dont get run and run hard.
they seem to eat RPM's for breakfast and come back for seconds.
goes against everything I ever did in 1/4 mile its closerer to enduro but the principles are the same.

 

[Pescadora]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

You're supporting some of the advice I'm getting from my local dealer, specifically the motor tech. He says, run it and run it hard. 6000rpm or as close to it as possible. You burn a bit more fuel, but the full power runs are to and from the fishing hot spots and the F150 can use that after a bunch of hours trolling at 850rpm. One balances the other.

Right now, an Enertia 16p gives me 5600rpm WOT. I might try a 15p next spring for a few more rpm.

 

[BoatGuy22]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

Meh Im more of 2-stroke guy myself cause I think they sound better.8) I dont hate on the 4-strokes except for the Merc Verado's those are some overweight POS motors. Just hope for someone that has a Verado 250 that if a PCM takes a dump out of warranty talk about pricey to replace-$10,000.

As rodbolt mentioned making oil is a common problem with 4's. IMO E-Tecs are the best out there right now but as far their long term reliablity its kinda up in the air.

 

[Pescadora]

Re: Four Stroke vs Two Stroke

I started with a blank slate last fall, when I decided to rig up a new fisherman. First outboard in thirty years. The last was a Merc 85hp 4cyl carbureted 2-stroke. Great performer to and from, but you needed a gas mask when trolling down wind, which is the preferred direction.

Automatically ruled out all 2-strokes this time, and that was probably a mistake. My buddies Fiche problems did not help. Verado was too new and I'm not that keen on the small displacement, highly stressed concept. Yamaha's design kinda sealed the decision. Low compression ratio, big displacement DOHC shimmed 4-stroke. Looked at Suzuki long and hard...in the end, no dealers in Montana, let alone my end of the state. The HPDI problems (and Yamaha reported warranty behavior toward them) made me consider BF150, however, in late 2005 there were wonderful deals on 2005 equipement. There were no BF150's to be had.

If I had not ruled out Evinrude early (and wrongly) I might have gained 50hp and lost 50lb on the transom. There is one point to consider...I've read that controlling E-tec rpms just off idle is not so keen. With the F150 it also takes a bit of finesse, but in the 800-1200rpm range, where the report on the Etec is more like idle to 3000rpm. Sounds like it might be a bit pipey to me.

Seems like making oil is a problem in cold water (below 60). My solution is to add just 5 qt at the oil/filter change, which is a bit low on the dip stick but still in the safe zone. When or if the level reaches the full mark, I change out the H20 loaded oil for a fresh batch. Valvoline 10-40 by the case is not so expensive. Once water temps break 70 (late June) the problem goes away until September. I'm about 400hours a season anyway, so the 100hr marks for change come fairly quickly.