Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

P.V.

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
452
A year or so ago, many posters on this and other boards were convinced that four strokes, with their many, many moving componants, where just a passing fad. Heavy, list-less and expensive, a few die-hard 2-strokers predicted that no-one would be happy owning one and that owners of "slug-machines" would go crawling back to "simplier, more reliable two strokes! So, my question is this! Has anyone seen or heard of catastrofic four-stroke powerhead problems?? Anyone hit any rocks and "toasted" their camshafts? Overheated their $10,000 cylinder heads?? There must of been at least one out their? Any one?? What kind of problems ARE you seeing?? Rumors? Hearsay? B.S.??
 

Terry H

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
1,862
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

I musta missed that post
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Naw, 4 strokes are just a passing fancy. The future of outboards is STEAM! Or maybe Diesel??
 

cp

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Messages
367
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Big electric motor under outboard cowling, powered by hydrogen fuel cell with the hydrogen derived from the water the boat's in by a solar generator...I should live so long :D ...in the meantime, guess I'll have to continue to put up with the flawless operation of my 4-stroke :cool: until it develops some problem.
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

I haven't heard of any blowing up but there sure seems to be a problem with water in the crankcase oil. It makes me check my 4 stroke oil more often than normal...and I have an early 4 stroke purchased before anyone heard of that problem. It's a carbed motor too...Oh the fear of it!.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

I do know of one instance. A work barge with a pair of Merc (Yamamha) 4 strokes ran aground. The operator powered off just as he had done with the 2 strokes and overheated the motors. Among the other obvious piston and head damage 3 of the 4 cams were twisted.<br /><br />Total cost was right at 18000. The marina wanted the ownwers to buy 2 new motors but they could not buy 2 for 9000 each.
 

CTD

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
234
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

I was picking up some stuff last week and the shop had 2 different mercs with parts sticking out out back.
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Dhadley,<br />How much would the repair have been with 2 stokes?<br />That's what bothers me about my 4 stroke...if it every needs work.
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

A typical rebuild on a 2 stroke powerhead is generally about 2500-3500 if the crank is good and the block is boreable. A reman replacement will be more but not 9000.<br /><br />I think I saw somewhere on here that a valve job pays 12-13 hours on some V6 4 strokes. Perhaps Seahorse could verify??? <br /><br />I have asked several marinas how much the "annual" maintenance costs are for the 2 and 4 strokes. Got some real wild quotes for the 4 strokes.
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

According to Yamaha flat rate book, just replacing or grinding 24 valves on a V6 200-225hp is over 13 hours.
 

jegervais

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
646
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Our dealership had a 90 John-zuki put a rod thru the block in less than 5 hours. One dealer buddy in MN had several 40/50's slip the crank sprocket after hitting underwater obstructions on Rainy Lake last year (really low water levels). And another dealer buddy had a 250 Suzuki put a rod thru the side of the block on #5 cylinder - less than 5 hours on it too.<br /><br />Four strokes perfect? Hell no.<br /><br />-John
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

To add to John's post, I've already seen a 25hp Johnson/Suzuki that hit a rock with a prop. The propshaft splines twisted and the pressed on timing gear on the crankshaft spun and knocked the valve timing out of kilter. Because of the cost of parts replacement plus the labor involved, and since the motor was fairly new, the insurance company "totaled" the engine and the customer got a new one.
 

OBJ

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
10,161
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

What ever happened to the "simple" days???
 

Tracy Coleman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
215
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

50 hp Yamaha broken crank, 115 4/s had a failure that the oil drained out while a high speed 'till the rod kicked the rest of it into junk. With more 4/s "out there" starting to see more carb problems gunking up. Anybody care to guess what a rebuild on 4 Yamaha carbs is going to cost? <br />Backfire
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

J.D. Power, Sept. 4, 2002<br /><br />"The study is based on responses of nearly 12,000 consumers....Regarding quality, one-third of outboard-powered boat owners report engine-related problems. Owners of new boats with four-stroke electronic fuel injection (EFI) outboard engines report the fewest number of engine problems, while owners of boats with two-stroke carburated outboard engines report the most problems, according to the study.<br /><br />Consumers who purchased a new boat equipped with a two-stroke outboard engine report twice as many problems as those who purchased a boat equipped with a four-stroke outboard engine."<br /><br />My experience agrees with these 12,000 people. ;)
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

OK, they compared new boats with 4 stroke EFI's to 2 stroke carb'd (didnt say new). There probably are twice a many old carb'd 2 strokes out there so the problems would be more. And a 2 stroke carb'd motor will most likely be much older than a new 4 stroke EFI.<br /><br />On new boat problems -- were the problems engine related or boat related?
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Here is the latest and complete news release from JD Powers, it is dated Oct. 2003. It will be interesting what the Oct. 2004 one will say.------------------------<br /><br /><br />Evinrude and Yamaha Rank Highest in Customer Satisfaction<br />Among Outboard Engines and Pleasurecraft Engine Group<br />Ranks Highest Among Inboard Engines<br /><br />FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: October 30, 2003<br /><br /><br />WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.—Less than one-third of boat owners indicate that they thoroughly understand the benefits of different marine engine technologies available on the market today and that engine technology plays a major role in their engine purchase decision, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Marine Engine Competitive Information StudySM released today.<br /><br />Among the more than 10,000 boat owners who responded to the survey, only 30 percent report that they thoroughly understand the benefits of engine technologies such as direct injection, electronic fuel injection, and two- and four-stroke. More than 20 percent of boaters indicate that they do not have a sound understanding of engine technologies. While only about one-quarter of first-time boat buyers indicate that their marine engine purchase decision was impacted by technology, that number more than doubles for buyers who have previously owned a marine engine.<br /><br />"Technology, particularly two-stroke direct injection (DI) and four-stroke electronic fuel injection (EFI), is having a major impact on the engines consumers shop for and ultimately purchase for their new boat," said Eric Sorensen, director of the marine practice at J.D. Power and Associates. "The industry still has some work to do in educating consumers on the pros and cons of each of the technologies. First-time boat buyers definitely should be made more aware of the benefits of high-technology engines and the drawbacks of carbureted engines."<br /><br />The study finds that engine technology affects the engine purchase decisions of coastal fishing, pontoon and fiberglass bass boat owners to a higher degree and to runabout and express cruiser boat owners to a lesser degree. <br /><br />Among the five technologies used in outboard engines, owners of new boats with four-stroke EFI outboard engines report the fewest number of engine problems, while owners of boats with two-stroke carburated outboard engines report the most problems.<br /><br />"The four-stroke electronic fuel injection engines set the benchmark when it comes to quality," Sorensen said. "They are very reliable, run clean and quiet, and are very fuel efficient. The trade-off is that they’re bigger and heavier, cost more and don’t accelerate as rapidly as two-strokes."<br /><br />Among the three major engine categories measured, consumers are most pleased with inboards, followed by outboards and sterndrives. Owners of ski/wakeboard boats equipped with inboard motors are not only significantly more satisfied with their engines, but also report less than one-half the number of problems than do owners of sterndrive and outboard-powered boats.<br /><br />One issue boat owners repeatedly raise is that the engine doesn’t have enough power for the size of the boat or for their overall boating needs. Under powering a boat negatively impacts some of the most important attributes, such as acceleration and cruise and top-end speed.<br /><br />"Boat dealers are increasingly listening to consumers, trying to understand where and how they plan to use their new boat so they can find the proper boat/engine fit for their needs," said Sorensen. "But there still is some work to be done. The engine impacts so many elements of the boating experience that it is absolutely vital that boat dealers make sure their customers are getting the right boat/engine package."<br /><br />The study is based on responses from consumers who purchased a new 2002 or 2003 model-year boat between January 2002 and February 2003. Boat owners were asked about their on-the-water experience with their new outboard, sterndrive or inboard boat engines. Study results were calculated using an engine performance index, which includes eight engine factors: ease of starting when engine is cold; ease of starting when engine is hot; quietness of the engine at cruising speed; ability of boat to accelerate rapidly; cruising speed of boat; engine fumes; cruise time/range between fuel stops; and the standard warranty coverage of the engine.<br /><br />Evinrude ranks highest among two-stroke outboard engines, with high marks for cruise time/range between fuel stops and lack of engine fumes. Yamaha follows Evinrude in the two-stroke engine segment rankings. Yamaha receives high marks for quietness at cruising speed, ease of starting when hot and standard warranty coverage.<br /><br />Yamaha ranks highest in the four-stroke engine segment for the second consecutive year. Yamaha has strong performance for ease of starting when cold and cruising speed. Honda, which follows Yamaha in the four-stroke outboard rankings, receives high marks for cruise time/range between fuel stops and standard warranty coverage. <br /><br />Pleasurecraft Engine Group (PCM) ranks highest among inboard engines, receiving high marks for all key engine attributes measured. Indmar, which follows PCM in the rankings, performs well in for cruise time/range between fuel stops and standard warranty coverage.<br /><br />Headquartered in Westlake Village, Calif., J.D. Power and Associates is an ISO 9001-registered global marketing information services firm operating in key business sectors including market research, forecasting, consulting, training and customer satisfaction. Media e-mail contact: john.tews@jdpa.com or michael.greywitt@jdpa.com
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

By Dhadley - OK, they compared new boats with 4 stroke EFI's to 2 stroke carb'd (didnt say new). There probably are twice a many old carb'd 2 strokes out there so the problems would be more. And a 2 stroke carb'd motor will most likely be much older than a new 4 stroke EFI.
Nice try. All 12,000 owners surveyed purchased new boats/motors in 2001. So you're reasoning for the "old carb'd 2-strokes" just doesn't apply.<br /><br />J.D. Power - "Consumers who purchased a new boat equipped with a two-stroke outboard engine report twice as many problems as those who purchased a boat equipped with a four-stroke outboard engine."<br /><br />Not only were the 2-strokes new, but they were compared to the carbureted 4-strokes too.<br /><br /><br />
By seahorse - Here is the latest and complete news release from JD Powers...
J.D. Power - "Among the five technologies used in outboard engines, owners of new boats with four-stroke EFI outboard engines report the fewest number of engine problems, while owners of boats with two-stroke carburated outboard engines report the most problems."<br /><br />That confirms what I already said seahorse. BTW, the "five technologies" include DFI's.
 

Terry H

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
1,862
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by P.V.:<br /> A year or so ago, many posters on this and other boards were convinced that four strokes, with their many, many moving componants, where just a passing fad. Heavy, list-less and expensive, a few die-hard 2-strokers predicted that no-one would be happy owning one and that owners of "slug-machines" would go crawling back to "simplier, more reliable two strokes! So, my question is this! Has anyone seen or heard of catastrofic four-stroke powerhead problems?? Anyone hit any rocks and "toasted" their camshafts? Overheated their $10,000 cylinder heads?? There must of been at least one out their? Any one?? What kind of problems ARE you seeing?? Rumors? Hearsay? B.S.??
I think you're getting off the subject guys...this aint about polls and surveys by non-boaters...it's about real life experiences...thank you bery much... :)
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Four strokes blowin UP !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chief 101:<br />
Originally posted by P.V.:<br /> Anyone hit any rocks and "toasted" their camshafts?
Now that you mention it, a couple of years ago a Canadian dealer posted that a Honda 90 had a prop strike and the cam snapped in two. He wondered if anyone else had seen that problem.
 
Top