Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

[Franki]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I'd like to bring up cost here..<br /><br />I have heard many people say that the power and ecconomy of the 2strokes are leading right now..<br /><br />I think cost is a bigger issue that will hold back 4 stroke adoption...<br /><br />unless the manufacturers can bring 4 strokes into the same price bracket as 2stokes, they will never see the same sales in the long term<br /><br />and for a manufacturer to do that, they would be seriously cutting their profit margin over 2 strokes, which will make them favour the 2strokes, leading to marketing and pushing the 2 stokes more.<br /><br />think about it,, <br /><br />the factors that favour 2stokes.<br /><br />1. Weight.<br />2. Price.<br />3. Throttle response due to less reciprocating weight.<br />4. overall power to weight ratio.<br /><br />I'll leave out emissions and ecommomy, I don't think there is enough difference to warrant it as a point.<br /><br />but taking that into account, there isn't alot really that pushes people into buying a 4stoke is there??<br /><br />I can't imagine what people would have to tell me that would convince me to put a lesser performing, heavier and significantly more expensive motor on the back of my boat...<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank

 

[gevannos]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

My 2 cents<br /><br />I work for a state environmental agency so the environment is always on my mind. Now, I am far from a tree hugger but I do think mankind can be more resposible. Last year I bought a little 25 hp 2 stroke merc (a 1999 left over). I think the 4's are going to be the way of the future but it may not be right now. Like some of you guys already said they are only a few years old and have alot of catching up to do.<br /><br />I use Penzoil synthetic 2 stroke oil (I use synthetic lubricants in everything I own. Better for the machine and much better for the environment) <br /><br />One of the reasons I like the Penzoil synthetic is that it is bio-degradable. I am sure other synthetics are just as good and brand name is not important. <br /><br />With a 4 stroker you still have crankcase oil with heavy metal content to deal with for disposal, but recycling techniques are also getting better.<br /><br />This issue will come to maturity in the future as technology gets better, hopefully not too long down the road. In the mean time if we all keep our motors tuned and use the best lubricants we can the impact on the environment will be minimal.<br /><br />Just think, this whole issue will be gone when we run out of crude oil sometime in the future. <br /><br />IMHO and 1.5 cents worth<br />Eric

 

[Newhook]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Although the 2-strokes may be approaching 4's in efficiency in bigger motors, the only real advantage to 2's is power to weight ratio hence their use in racing bikes, boat motors and chain saws. It seems to me that weight on a boat must have been the dominant concern when O/B's were first manufactured and therefor the use of 2 str technology began and persisted. <br /> <br />There are some applications for which 2-stroke technology remain ideally suited. Chainsaws are an example. A 4-stroke cannot be tipped upside down due to crank oil to cut a tree and even an extra pound of weight means a lot when carrying a tool all day. <br /><br />Overall, there can be no deying the advantages to 4-stroke technology unless weight and raw horsepower are the dominant considerations. This is the reason why all autos, with the exception of a few eastern european duds are powered by 4's. <br /><br />That's why I think that where lightness and portability are important(i.e a 5hp motor) or where accel. and top speed is the concern, 2's will continue to dominate. For the rest of us, the 4-sroke will be the preferred option.<br /><br />That's my $0.02

 

[csmithrc]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

As the old saying goes-different strokes for different folks.I think it all depends on what your intended purpose is that you need the engine for.Wouln't want a power stroke diesel in a little Neon would we.Just like JB said that 4 stroke fits his purpose.I think both serve their use and as long as there is a market for them both will continue to be made.

 

[JB]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I suppose it is worth pointing out that the Suzuki DF140 is both lighter and less expensive than many old- and new-tech 2 strokes in the same power range.<br /><br />

 

[Beernutz]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Yeah, but just count all those moving parts.

 

[JS2]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

There are no Suzuki dealers here in the Detroit area, so I can't buy one of those "inexpensive" Suzuki 140 4-strokes. What is the cost of a 4-stroke powerhead rebuild vs. a 2-stroke powerhead rebuild? A 2-stroke DFI is still less complicated than a comparable 4-stroke - far fewer INTERNAL engine parts. How long would a 4-stroke automobile engine last if it spent most of it's life running at 5000+ rpm?

 

[Admin5]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

^

 

[Franki]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I wish to write in response to JB..<br /><br />You say in your post that your 4stroke is lighter then many equiv 2 strokes, and while I don't dispute this, I'd like to add that you really really should be asking "WHY?"<br /><br />Since we know that 2 engines (one two and one four stroke), made of the same substances, with they same physical strength, the four stroke will be much heavier.<br /><br />cam, oilpump, cam chain, guides, sprokets, valves, springs, guides.. etc etc.. <br /><br />If your 4 stroke is lighter then some 2 strokes, I'd find that a reason to worry in and off itself.<br /><br />even if suzuki hollowed out the cam, and any other assorted parts that make it a four stroke, at best they could only get it slightly heavier..<br /><br />So the fact that its lighter means that not only have they lightened the four stroke components, but they must have done some serious shaving of the rest of the motor and leg as well..<br /><br />Maybe thats why some of the suzuki's have had snapped cams and stuff...<br /><br />Not to knock the motor.. but I'd love to see how many of them are running in 10 years without having had total rebuilds... (which is apparently rather hard to get parts for from what I read on this list.)<br /><br />Simply put, a four stroke SHOULD be heavier then a 2 stoke.. and if it isn't, you should ask why...<br /><br />Either the 2 stroke has been made very very well to reach such weight figures, or the Suzuki has been shaved significantly with regards to metal thickness over the whole motor..<br /><br />I'd love to see a test where they get to heavy boats (identical) they put a 4 stroke on one and a two stroke on the other.(say a 2002 suzuki DF and a 2002 Ficht) . then put them at full load WOT and leave them there, for days, have the fuel refilled like the hornets do it,, ie refueling boat.<br /><br />keep them going till one motor fails.. then when it does, do it again with different motors of the same type, (to make sure its not just a dud motor.) I'd really be interested in seeing that since its a good pressure test of engine strengh..<br /><br />my bets on the ficht outlasting the suzi .. but it'd certainly be interesting to see.<br />Just something to think about. (I am not anti suzi, quiet the opposite, I raced predominantly Suzi RM250's when I was younger and healed faster. <br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank

 

[JB]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Wow! <br /><br />You 4 stroke bashers want it both ways, don't you? <br /><br />I mentioned the weight and cost of the DF140 because you guys kept complaining that 4 strokes are too heavy and cost too much. Now you want to complain that it is too light!! Is it too inexpensive, too?<br /><br />Only a few DF70s have broken cams. About one for every hundred Fichts and Optimaxes that have blown up. Those DFIs aren't back on the water in a couple of weeks either.<br /><br />Have your fun. You obviously haven't used a 4s.<br /><br />

 

[gatr1]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Hi everybody . Long time reader first time poster. Very interesting topic with good opinions by all .My big concern for the four stroke is the near inevitability of a gasket or seal leaking salt water into the cam , chains , oil pan whatever leaving you with a big expensive anchor .I've had this happen on several two strokes and was able to save the engine with a little work. I don't think I could have saved a four stroke with salt water intrusion into the internal parts. Of course I'm no mechanic by any means at all. Pretty sure that I would just have to scrap it. Just one ignorant crackers opinion.

 

[Franki]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Sorry if I offended you JB.. that wasn't my intention.<br /><br />and I am not a 4stoke basher.. I think they are great.. as I said in an earlier post, I'd be happier to have both.. (and I have rebuilt tons of 4 stroke engines in cars and bikes.)<br /><br />and I have used a couple of different 4 strokes (honda and merc to be exact)<br /><br />I was very impressed with them.. so I am not bashing them at all..<br /><br />I was just making a point.. they should be heavier, all other things being equal.<br /><br />As far as I am concerned, its a matter of "whatever does it for you" <br /><br />I dislike 2stoke bashing though, they both have their place and I don't think either will be disapearing soon.<br /><br />Hell, due to finiancial constraints, I am currently stuck with a very old Johnson 100HP 2 stroke, so if someone offered me a 115 four stroke at a good price I'd be in like Flynn.. <br /><br />and one other thing..<br /><br />comparing carbed 2 strokes to carbed 4 strokes, I think I'd take the four stroke anyday.. because in that respect, the fuel ecomomy is far better with the four.. as are the emmisions and stuff..<br /><br />As I said, both have their place.. <br /><br />If I had a choise of boat/engine right now, money notwithstanding.. I'd pick:<br /><br />6700 Allrounder 6.7Meter Trihull with twin ficht 225's or Honda VTEC 225hp outboards...<br /><br />So as you can see, I'd take either.. but if money became the issue.. I'd have to take the OMC's as the Honda's are about 10,000 more expensive. $26,000 in Australian dollars each..<br /><br />Incidently, I don't think the weight amounts to much on bigger boats.. as an example, the honda I mentioned above is only 30-32kg heaver then a Merc Optimax of the same HP.. and on a boat big enough to take one of these.. (272kg) 32kg wouldn't make alot of difference.<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank

 

[JB]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Hi, Frank,<br /><br />I wasn't offended, mainly amused.<br /><br />In theory only, our automobiles should be powered by DFI 2 strokes.<br /><br />At their best, they smell, they are noisier than most 4 strokes and they aren't yet as reliable as carbed 2 strokes, which smell worse, smoke more, etc., etc.<br /><br />In practice, the four strokes are seductive. They are soooo quiet, soooo smooth and they start instantly, will idle all day and never stink or smoke.<br /><br />For folks preoccupied with a second quicker hole shot or 2mph more top end, most of the published comparos will lead them to DFI 2 strokes at about the same price as a comparable EFI 4 stroke. But those comparos are misleading. My DF70 will stay right with my sons Merc 90 2s on identical boats. That can't happen in theory, can it?<br /><br />

 

[JS2]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

What happens in 5+ years when thousands of 4-stroke O/Bs are on our waterways and a percentage of these start leaking motor oil into the water? Oil leaks are still a common problem with many modern 4-stroke auto engines.

 

[Terry H]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

My .02...I have always owned and run 2s motors as have most of us...I like em because they get me out on the water...I like the simplicity. I likely will buy a 4s when I no longer have the need for a jet pump to get me around on the rivers here. I can just see myself putting along on quiet water with a quiet motor and no smoke screen. I say, use the motor that will do the job and get you out on the water and enjoy life...you'll get no argument from me on 2s vs 4s...just my Thoughts

 

[what200]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I like'em both for what each is good at. If I owned a pontoon boat I'd probably want to put a 140 4 stroke on it. However, I know guy around my area that has a 2.4 bridgeport on a 15' hyrostream viper. If you tried to put a 225 honda on this boat it would literally sink it and if it didn't it still wouldn't go as fast. Both types have their places.

 

[G DANE]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Hi gents.<br /><br />This really is an interesting topic. I think choosing the right motor is depending on how well developed the 4S are, or will bee. Ive been doing a lot of motorbiking and some stockcar racing as well. In the early 70ties both Kawasaki and Suzuki manufactured a 750 2S. Great bikes, unbeatable by any 4S. But you really have to look far around today to see a big 2S motorbike - Why ? Because the 4S became highly developed, beating the 2S when comparing performance to economy and the time the motor lasted !! I love the 2S outboards, but i think their time will come too, unless the 2s technology will be developed further on. Time will show us all. There is a motor we all like, just as we dont own same model or brand of car either. Luckeyli all people are different, else what should we talk about.<br /><br />Have a nice time everybody.

 

[rolmops]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I love old 2-strokes,but the reasons are mostly romantic.<br />The environment is really what should count most and obviously 4-strokes burn cleaner.<br />As for fuel efficiency,the differences are negligable.<br />With the introduction of composite materials,we will soon see ultra light 4-strokes which because of much higher working temperatures will be far more fuel efficient than the ones we see today.<br />Anyway, the fossil fuel combustion engine days are numbered and before too long we will see hydrogene powered engines on the water and that is where we should be seeing the real exiting innovations.<br /><br />One Futuristic Rolmops.

 

[JS2]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Quit dreaming and get back to reality. Starting in 1998, 10% of all vehicles sold in California were supposed to be electric vehicles. GM spent millions of dollars developing their electric car and nobody in CA bought it. The current hybrids from Honda and Toyota are collecting dust on dealers lots. Evironmentalists are people who think everybody else should drive an electric or hybrid vehicle, while the "greens" continue to drive SUVs. If you truly care about the environment, why don't YOU voluntarily stop driving vehicles with internal combustion engines and find alternative means of transportation - horse, bicycle, pair of feet?<br /><br />The only reason the Japanese stopped selling large 2 stroke street-legal motorcycles in the US was because of the stupid emissions regulations that forced them out of existence. You can still buy a 2 stroke street bike in just about every other country on this planet (apparently they are not overly concerned about 2 stroke emissions). Those 2 strokes will still kick the **** out of a similar-sized 4 stroke motorcycle.

 

[RJS]

Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Trailerboats has a good may article comparing the Yamaha 200HPDFI to the Yamaha 200 Four stroke. If you like to troll, go with the four stroke. If you like to run fast,like to cruise at higher speeds, and don't want to spend the extra money, go with the 2 stroke.