GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

[LubeDude]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Cant help it as an old big block person! Corvette experience, but a big block is a bigblock!<br /><br />Ive had similar things happen, but always had the valve keepers come off! I would say that there had to be a valve timing issue for this to happen! Piston had to hit the valves for everything to come apart like this! There is a very good chance that you have at least one bent valve! You really need to remove the head to see what you have! Maybe timing chain, or the worst thing would be a broken cam shaft!<br /><br />You can put in new lifters on an old cam but not the other way around! Done it a million times! Just break them in correctly after assembly!<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Just put the lifters in a vice and fluid came out the hole. Took the spring off, collected the oil, all normal, both lifters, so it wasn’t a lifter. I was just going about 1800 rpm’s bout 8-10 mph. For about 3 hours. Nothing was abnormal. Heat 140, oil pressure 45 lbs. Could detect no miss. About 5 miles from the marina went to wot. The starboard engine went to about 3800 and the port only 2800. Ran them back in at 2500. Only thing I knew for sure port engine would not come up to speed. First though fuel filter. Backed into the slip, tied up, getting back aboard a heard the sound of a stuck lifter. Next week started engine, lifter noise. Poured about every thing you can buy cept my beer down that engine nothing helped. So on this board I came. On taking the exhaust manifold off I though there was a little water in the no.7 port.<br />Here is where I am. Not the cam (from what I can see), not the lifter, rods gone, rockers look ok, springs look ok. The only thing I can figure at this point is a bent valve. That’s the only thing left in the valve train right? Will take the head off Saturday. What will I find and what is your best guess on the reason? Appreciate the help guys.

 

[427hawk]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

hello , has anyone thought of putting air to the cylinder , if the valve struck the piston hard enough to do major damage you will soon find out.... just a thought

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Pilot954 No I didn’t hear anything out of the ordinary while underway. 427hawk, I’m going to take the head off Saturday. That’s the only thing left on that side of the engine. By the way, I have started that engine about a dozen times since the noise started. It starts in a hear beat with no noise other that*@#&* lifter.

 

[K Hultgre]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Researching the Comp Cam web site their mildest cam for a 396-402cid produces a lift of .460". The cam for a 454 produces a lift of .475" Depending on if the heads were resurfaced during rebuild and the clearances between the valves and piston reduced you may have bent a valve due to a sticky lifter, sticky valve (rust maybe) or something else more sinister. <br /><br /> Have you hand cranked the engine and watched to make sure the cam is rotating like it should be and all components go up and down when they should? <br /> Also, from one of the previous posts, lay a straight edge across the top of the rocker arm studs to make sure the studs were not pushed up when the failure happened.<br />When you get the Head off let us know what the top of the piston looks like. <br /><br />Good Luck.

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

No Kevin, I have not hand cranked the motor, but before I started dismantling it, it ran very well with the exception of a miss. So I would have to think that everything is going up and down, as it should with the exception being no.7. If the cam in broken it will have to be after no.6. I will take a look at that and the ruler test.

 

[loadnet]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Just had to jump in here and mention that recently I posted articles on a 350 GM engine I was working on with stuck valves. <br /><br />The engine had 2 stuck valves, probably from sitting for 1 1/2 years.<br /><br />After removing the valve cover we saw that 2 of the studs had come up quite a bit.<br /><br />We called the local machine shop for advise and they said to put double nuts on the stud and smack it with a brass dowl and hammer. They'll go right down no problem and stay there.<br /><br />We did that and replaced one bent push tube and a broken push tube. <br /><br />We also had to rap lightly on the 2 stuck valves with a piece of wood and hammer in order to free them up again. It took 2 days of soaking the valve stems first, with PB Blaster before attempting to smack em.<br /><br />Matter of fact we tapped one of the valves down a bit and it stuck all the way in the full open position so we had to use a Slide Hammer type PULLER on the retainer to get the thing back up again.<br /><br />3 oil changes later, and with using the same used rockers this engine is now purring like a kitten.<br /><br />We've had the boat out working it pretty good, to see if it'll hold up ok, and she just keeps running better and better each time out.<br /><br />Just wanted to fill you in on our story of stuck valves.<br /><br />Maybe it'll give you a little light at the end of your own tunnel.

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Glade you posted. Didn’t notice the studs being any higher than the rest, but will put a ruler on then sat. Sounds awful close to what I’m having. How easily should the valves move when I hit them with a hammer? By that I mean should I see or feel the depression? One other thing, if the studs are in alignment with the others am I back to square one?

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I might be proved wrong but I am still leaning to fatigue failure on one rod taking out the other. I would also look real close for a broken or weak valve spring. It can cause valve float which can break push rods and rocker arms. <br /><br />Buttanic

 

[CRT Skiff Crafter]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Hi Scamper. Been watching this post with great interest. Sorry to hear about your problem.<br />Quick question: You mentioned running engine with too much oil. Was this the result of an over fill or is the engine "making oil" as in water or gas getting in oil?<br /><br />Hope you get expedient resolution and are back in business ASAP!<br /><br />Regards, crt.

 

[loadnet]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Scamper..<br /><br />

How easily should the valves move when I hit them with a hammer? By that I mean should I see or feel the depression?

Yes, you'll feel them depress for a split second, like a hard very short bounce...keeping in mind that the most careful way to see if they'll depress and return would be to use the box end wrench method (as a pry bar) previously mentioned, depressing the valve stem with gradual pressure is the safest way for sure. The only reason we HAD to smack our 2 valves is because they were frozen from rust.<br /><br />Honestly Scamper?<br />I think you're questioning yourself way too much.<br /><br />You've done a great job thus far checking all avenues and need to start feeling a little more confident on your accomplishments.<br /><br />You've got plenty enough bullets in your gun now to get this project completed.<br /><br />- I would do the following things right now if I were in your shoes, sneakers but not high heels.<br />(I don't like high heels, sorry..they hurt my ankles)<br /><br />- Install 2 new lifters and tubes then using the pry bar box end wrench method, make sure the valves are going up and down FREELY. If one or both fail to come back up each time you depress them squirt them with PB Blaster and keep pushing them down until they free up nicely and come ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP without a problem. - Won't free up no matter what..? Remove the head..they're BENT and need replacing. -- If they come up all the way when you let the pressure off the box end wrench.. continue reading. <br /><br />- Check the timing on the engine to make sure it didn't jump on you at WOT coming in that day..<br />If it's OFF - you'll have to get her back on the money before continuing.. (whatever it takes to do that, just do it. Replace the chain and gears, if need be.<br /><br />Next, like the man said..<br />- Air up that questionable cylinder and make sure it's holding good compression. Listen and look for air leaks around the valves and where the head meets the block underneath and above.<br />Compression won't build up with both valves fully closed? - Stop - yank the head.<br />Got good compression? Continue reading...<br /><br />- Turn the engine over a few times making sure ALL rockers are moving up and down the same exact distance. Not moving the same distance? - Stop - you may have a broken camshaft....Everything looks good? - continue reading...<br /><br />- If all of the above are ok? just throw the engine back together, change the oil - filter, and let her rip.<br /><br />- 1 of 2 things are going to happen.<br /><br />1) It's going to run great as it did before.<br />2) It's going to run great as it did before.<br /><br />That's the only thing that can happen. <br /><br />so what the heck caused this dilema to happen?<br /><br />Could have been the simplest little thing like your oil may have been on the dirty side, (thin) and red hot after running her all day at 3000RPM so when you slammed her into WOT - a lifter may have collapsed from not enough oil pressure which can cause the tube to pop out, break.. and lay over into the valve spring on the adjacent valve, causing it TOO to go bye bye on you.<br /><br />The rest is history.<br /><br />Another poster asked you if the problem errupted shortly after firing the engine, or did it happen after the engine was running for quite awhile.<br /><br />He was probably trying to determine if it was rust and the engine sitting over a period of time that caused the 2 valves to stick.<br /><br />I don't think rust was an issue here like our engine experienced.<br /><br />If you came up S L O W to WOT on your way in that day..no problem...but if you punched it real good, I think you just experienced a collapsed lifter, combined with some weak valve springs causing the tubes to go for their little excursion around the inside of your engine.<br /><br />Now I'm not saying you punched it.. I'm just saying that punching an engine that's already hot from running it all day long - could cause - a lifter to start talking to you as in... Yoh!..Mr. Scamper, I don't think I can do this right now Sir!<br /><br />Mr Scamper? MR. SCAMPER!!! Oh heck, he can't hear me. --- Oh well? guess I'll have to drop my shorts now.<br /><br />..so do all the quicky checks listed above, and if all is good, get that thing back together and let us all know how you make out.

 

[Buttanic]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Just caught the part where you said the engine had too much oil. Here's what can happen with too much oil. The rotating crankshaft hits the oil and whips in into a froth of oil and air. Now oil is not compressible and that is the reason a hydraulic lifter works. But air is compressible and if enough air get in a lifter it will colaspe. The colasped lifter will put shock loads on the push rod and rocker arm everytime the cam pushes the valve open. A hydraulic lifter operates at zero clearance, with the lifter colasped the clearance opens up to what ever is the length of travel of the piston in the lifter. Now instead of gently pushing the valve open the rocker arm and push rod slams it like hitting it with a hammer. This is enough to shatter something especially at high RPM.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Your are getting some great advice, just a couple things Ive thought of that have been overlooked! You mentioned that after all this happened that you restarted the engine only to hear a lifter type clicking sound! If all was as stated there would be nothing to clatter! You should inspect all your pushrods to be certain that none of the other ones are bent! You can do this by removing them and rolling them on something known to be flat like your wifes glass coffee table! (clean the oil off first)! Also pour plenty of assembly lube on those new lifters before you put them in! I personnally would put in all new lifters so you would have a mached set! They really are not too expensive as a set! You do not know if you may have damaged others and you do not want to go through this again, just good insurance! Im not sure that I wouldnt put all new pushrods in also! Just me, I tend to be a little over carefull as I do not like to do things twice! I agree that the over fill of oil might have caused all of this! How much over full was it??<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[richmatt]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Just read through the thread and the previous ones which suggested how you might get that manifold off. I may have missed something but if the lifter was stuck at the top of its travel (at its longest) the valve its driving wont close resulting in low or no compression. If your pistons and valves are playing chicken then you could have a bent valve from where the piston has crashed into the valve and this may also have caused the rod to shatter or bend. If the lifter was stuck at the bottom of its range then you wouldnt get the valve to open wide or long enough so you'd loose power and other stuff but should result in shattered rods unless there was so much slack that the rod jumped out of the lifter and got mashed by the cam (or the rod next to it?).<br />The other alternative is water (or oil) in the cylinder it wouldnt compress, so if you had just the right amount it may have stopped the valve from opening thereby putting stress on the pushrods etc<br />I have a SB 229 Chevy V6, same as the 305 but 2 cylinders short, and I can just about depress the valve springs by hand - you dont need to hit them with a hammer just use a suitably size bit of wood and lean on it with all your weight (easy for me at 225lbs) they should give enough to give you confidence that they arent sticking. <br />Bottom line is take the head off and have a look at the piston for signs of a collison, take out the valves and check them for straightness etc while the spings are out check the valve moves freely (but without side to side play) in the valve guide and the spring itself isnt broken or soft. If everything checks out then my guess is a fatigue failure in one pushrod that could have caused a secondary failure in the other but admittedly that seems unlikely. One final suggestion is to make sure you have recovered all the bits of the broken pushrods <br />Good luck

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

First let me answer CRT Skiff Crafter. The engine did not make oil. No water so I’m afraid that will only leave one other way for too much oil. Little embarrassed to go into that at this time. Buttanic, I would love for it to be rod fatigue. LubeDude, one of the lifters was still in the hole. Richmatt, I pulled the lifters apart yesterday and they seemed fine, oil was clean, no metal parts and they compressed when I had them in a vice, even with not much pressure on them. Captain HooknFinger, I have already smacked them with a piece of wood and a hammer. I did feel a very short bounce. I thought with that hammer blow it would depress them a little further, but it was a quick action. They did not go down near enough to see if they were bent. Please explain the pry bar box end wrench method to me once again. The timing must be ok as the engines fires and runs without hesitation. How do I air up the cylinder? The oil was not new but not dirty, still clean on the stick. I came up slowly, but steadily to WOT as I always do to get out of the hole. With out tabs, I don’t get out of the hole until I reach 2900 rpm. I had only run her at 1800 rpm before. I only use wot to get out of the hole. With the fuel consumption of this beast, you don’t stay there long. Will do the things suggested before pulling the head. Your right, I have plenty of bullets in my gun now. I feel warm and fuzzy all over knowing that this many people have taken an interest in helping me through this problem. Since my wife’s death I haven’t been around the boat that much. As I reflect on the past 6 weeks or so I can’t help but think that maybe this was meant to be, cause it sure gives me something else to think about.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

I still think I would replace all the lifters and push rods!<br /><br />Yes, there are a lot of us out here that are willing to give whatever we have! If there is someone close sometimes there is even a little one on one!<br /> <br /> Thats a tough one! If that were to happen to me, I think I would have to quit fishing as my wife is my fishing buddy, and we do everything together! Hang in there, May God comfort you and bless you in all you do!<br /><br />LubeDude

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

LubeDude, no doubt bout it, new rods and lifters. Appreciate the kind words.

 

[loadnet]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Scamper..<br /><br />

Captain HooknFinger, I have already smacked them with a piece of wood and a hammer. They did not go down near enough to see if they were bent. Please explain the pry bar box end wrench method to me once again.

With the rocker and rod removed, just slide an off-set box end wrench over the stud that holds the rocker in place, and slide a large washer on the stud over the top of the box end wrench, then put the nut back on. The washer and nut stops the wrench from lifting up off the stud when you are pushing down on the stem with the other end of the wrench.<br /><br />Therefore..<br />Position the box end wrench so that it is placed on TOP of the end of the valve stem, and push down on the valve stem making sure you are nice and square on top of the stem head, or the keeper wedges will want to slip out on you. Sometimes you can slide a small piece of plywood between the wrench and the stem head to keep is straight when applying your downward pressure. Ya don't want the keeper wedges to pop out, so be careful and watch the keeper as you push the valve downward. If it starts to tilt or twist on your STOP and re-position the wrench.<br /><br />Use a good size box end wrench for this ordeal so you'll have plenty of leverage when pushing down on the stem.<br /><br />The valve should depress at least 3/4 of the way down and return freely when you let off pressure on the wrench.<br /><br />If they get stuck when you get em down in pretty good, spray em with PB Blaster and try short pushes with the box end to free em up.<br /><br />Hope ths helps you out some.<br />PB

 

[scamper]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

Now understand the box end method. One more question and I swear I’ll leave you guys alone till update time Saturday. How do I air up that questionable cylinder? I think for the update I’ll start a new thread, this one is getting too long.

 

[jlshields]

Re: GOT THE LIFTER OUT!!

If you go smacking the valve stem with a hammer or opening the valve by any means be sure your piston is NOT at top dead center or guess what. You'll bend a valve or crack a piston.