Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

[FuddleyPJones]

Just got a 1979 Johnson 115 which had been sitting for the last five+ years.

I removed the spark plugs,sprayed in some oil, and turned engine by hand. Turns fine with no resistance. I sprayed in some starting fluid and then reinstalled spark plugs.

I jumped power off my diesel truck to the boat battery cables (no battery) and the starter will spin but not engage. I jumped directly to the starter and the starter will engage and the engine will turn over but ever so slowly with no ignition. The jumper cables and clamps started to get VERY hot. Surely this is not right. Jumping off two new 12v batteries this thing should turn fast all day!

Why is it turning so slowly? bad/weak starter? (It is out of gear in neutral)

I realize that points, condensers, and bla bla bla can go bad but this should not keep the starter from turning this engine over quickly.

I have not checked for spark yet but I'm not sure that I will even get a spark with the engine turning that slowly.

Let me know what's bouncing around in your heads (related to the topic - of course)

 

[Camo Joe]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

You might try pulling the plugs pouring in a little seafoam etc. ........wait a bit.........then turn the engine by hand a few rounds with plugs out..........if it gets easier try the starter a few rounds........then clean the plugs and put them back in..........make sure its getting fuel and try cranking........if it don't hit check the plugs for firing..........Be careful not to catch anything on fire..........Don't use starting fluid in the cylinders ...............

 

[5150abf]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

First I would get a battery for it,and go from there, sitting for 5 years probably didn't do the starter any good, inside may be corroded pretty bad.

Get a battery, clean all your connections in the engine and see where you are then.

Sitting for 5 years you will need to change the impeller BEFORE you run the engine.

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

You did not mention whether you tried starting the engine with from connecting the outboard cables direct to the battery. The starter will take 200 amps, so it does not take long for jumper cables to get hot. The starter solenoid may be defective if the starter will only turn by jumping it directly. The contacts may be bad and may not be passing the proper amount of current. I'd also check the starter bendix. It should move freely and not be lubbed with any grease-as it is too thick for the bendix to operate normally. Only use special bendix starter grease or a heavy oil. As a last restort, it is possible the brushes in the starter are bad. They are replaceable and should be sold separately by any Bombardier dealer-you just need to know if you have a Prestolite or Bosch starter. You are right, the starter must turn the engine a minimum of 200 rpm to activate the ignition system.

 

[glassmaster68]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

i would suggest not using starting fluid at all,,,,old deisel tractors and dozers,ok,,,,,but not on outboards,,when you have good fire and fuel delivery,it will run if it has good compression,,,,,,,,,the older i get ,the harder it is to get my johnson started also

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

Suggest you read up on many of the topics in this link to begin with. Bad starter performance is regularly blamed on the starter itself or the battery. Many folk do not pay enough attention to the cables and connections. Just because they are there does not mean they are good. One bad connection or one old and faulty cable and you can forget about starting your motor.
Never use starting fluid as there is no lubrication in it. Use a spray bottle of 50 to 1 mix if necessary. If it won't start with that then you have other issues.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=299680

 

[FuddleyPJones]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

I jumped power off my diesel truck to the boat battery cables (no battery) and the starter will spin but not engage. I jumped directly to the starter and the starter will engage and the engine will turn over but ever so slowly with no ignition. The jumper cables and clamps started to get VERY hot. Surely this is not right. Jumping off two new 12v batteries this thing should turn fast all day!

Thanks for all the input...
I will refrain from using starting fluid...


One question still remains...
If I'm jumping straight to the starter from my F350 with new batteries shouldn't the starter on this outboard be turning the motor over quickly?

I would think so - So...why so slow?

BTW - does this Johnson 115TL79R have points??? (Duh!)

Thanks!!!

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

Did you clean all the connections till they were shiny and check the cables for nicks and breaks ???

 

[glassmaster68]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

may just be a bum starter,might have to get it rebuilt if theres anyplace that does it around your area,,,bout 100 bucks around here,outside of birmingham,to rebuild almost any kind of starter at this one place,,,except big trucks,bout 300

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

may just be a bum starter,might have to get it rebuilt if theres anyplace that does it around your area,,,bout 100 bucks around here,outside of birmingham,to rebuild almost any kind of starter at this one place,,,except big trucks,bout 300

May be but best to check the things that cost nothing first don't you think ??

 

[glassmaster68]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

well sure adm ken,,,heck yeah ,check the things that cost nothing first,that should go without saying,dont you think?,,,,just giving an idea for going to the next step,as there isnt much more free things to try after hooking straight to the starter and assuming all other advice has already been taken without results,sorry if i have mis stepped in any way,,first time ive been quoted and kinda shot down

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

well sure adm ken,,,heck yeah ,check the things that cost nothing first,that should go without saying,don't you think?,,,,just giving an idea for going to the next step,as there isn't much more free things to try after hooking straight to the starter and assuming all other advice has already been taken without results,sorry if i have mis stepped in any way,,first time I've been quoted and kinda shot down

Certainly not trying to shoot your input down. Apologise if it came over that way. My intention was only to make sure the original poster had exhausted the easy and "free" things before investing $$ into the motor.
You would be surprised at how many threads are started out here that say, "motor will not turn over properly, bought new starter, still the same, what could be wrong with it"

 

[FuddleyPJones]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

Update:

Just finished going through EVERY connection and cleaning/filing every surface. then I jumped straight to the end of the positive and negative cables and tried my luck - nothing but starter spinning. Not enough juice to pop the gear into the flywheel.

So then I went straight to the starter again. I clamped the negative of the jumper cables onto a starter body mounting bolt and and touched the Positive to the solonoid positive terminal. I did get it to jump, engage and turn but still at a very slow, arduous pace. I am beginning to think that the starter is just tired. Still, I wander if there is something internal to the engine that makes it hard to turn over. It seems to turn over just fine with the spark plugs out.

Here is an interesting tidbit I discovered while cleaning/inspecting. It seems that all the heavy guage (6+AWG) wiring is ALUMINUM!! I didn't like that and I am going to change it all over to copper. I was just thinking that due to the length required to reach to the motor I might do better buying a set of jumper cables and using the cables only and adding my own terminations. Aluminum is not as good a conductor as copper, nor is it as malleable - hence the swap. I am also going to eliminate an odd junction of these cables in the battery compartment. Currently there are short copper cables running from the battery to couple of bolts in a piece of 1/2" plywood in the battery compartment. The copper cables are on one side and the starter feeds are on the other along with other taps for accessories and the trim unit. Really a poor design. The more connections you have the more possibilities for corrosion and resistance jumps.


As an alarm guy I solder all my connections - I find it strange that in a marine environment so many of these connections are just crimped. A recipe for disaster in my book as this increases the odds of oxidation and corrosion leading to higher and higher resistance values on the cable. Even with my autos when I purchase or make a battery cable with a terminal I will crimp the terminal to the wire and then use a small torch to heat the terminal and solder that baby right up. It makes for a great connection and if the end is filled with solder it can't get filled with corrosion...

 

[emdsapmgr]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

Is there something wrong with the original battery cables that came on the engine?

 

[Indymike]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

I have never seen Al. battery cables, are you sure they are not tinned copper instead?
Pull a battery from your truck and hook it up directly to the cables at the boat motor. At the current required for the boat starter there will be a huge voltage drop through the jumper cables. That's why they get so hot.

 

[FuddleyPJones]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

Well, I'm really not the dumbass that you think I am at this point. I just checked and they are not aluminum there are, in fact, tinned copper. I have never seen tinned copper battery cables before so you may understand the assumption. Must be a marine thing.

I still don't like the current set-up and I will be changing it so that there is not a second junction before the starter. I dont think this is an OEM set-up.

If a car will jump off jumper cables this should as well. It's not that big an engine.

 

[agefhx]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

I have a 1981 johnson 115, and the starter will just spin if the battery in not fully charged. I can manualy move the starter gear up into the engaged position and then turn the key.

It will turn over slowly and start. After a warmup it engages and starts everytime.

 

[Indymike]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

The reason a car will start with the jump is that you are giving the drained battery a "boost". The "boost battery and alternator will charge the dead battery enough that it becomes useful. You don't have that first battery in the circuit. You are probably using 6awg jumper cables at best and 10'-12' long. You are getting a drop of 3-4 volts at 225A. That is 25% or greater drop which is huge. Try starting your car with a battery voltage of 8 or 9 volts...it won't happen.

I still don't like the current set-up and I will be changing it so that there is not a second junction before the starter. I dont think this is an OEM set-up.

I agree that doesn't look good.

I realize that points, condensers, and bla bla bla can go bad but this should not keep the starter from turning this engine over quickly.

I have not checked for spark yet but I'm not sure that I will even get a spark with the engine turning that slowly.

No points in that motor and it needs about 300 rpm from the starter to start.

Try the battery direct...I'll bet it cranks like you need.

 

[FuddleyPJones]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

HEY EVERYONE!!! I GOT IT STARTED!!!! DANG THAT FEELS GOOD!

I figured that there was only a couple of reasons for the problem: 1) I had a dieing starter that could not handle the load. or2) There was an Amp drop either from a poor connection with the jumper cables or a current draw within the boat. I kept trying different set-ups to try to isolate an electrical drain - if there was one. What I ended up doing was to USE A SECOND SET OF JUMPER CABLES jumped from my F350 Diesel truck's second battery. This worked and the engine turned over just fine. One quick shot of pre-mix from a sprayer in the carb and Varoom! Just about 2 seconds then I let it die as I do not have H2O for cooling. This tells me that it was amp drop all along.

If two new diesel batterys that are already in parrallel with each other can't turn over the engine, how the heck is just one on-board battery gonna do it???


Here is an interesting observation however. Even without a battery connected inside the boat and the jumper cables going striaght to the starter posts the trim still worked - the only explaination is that power was back-feeding through some other electrical connection at the engine - this doesn't seem right but I'll have to think on it a bit.

 

[rellsun]

Re: Hard to get my Johnson started - lend a hand

well as indymike said it seems to have been a voltage drop problem. I would suggest using 4ga. copper wire. I would crimp,solder,and heat shrink the terminals.Can never be too safe.Having 2 batteries in parallel only increases the amps, the voltage remains the same. And the tilt/trim should work without a battery. The motor has a stator which provides power for your engine then a rectifier to charge the battery.The battery is only used in starting.