Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

[NapaBavarian]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

Then stop being a whiner and start learning.

Can't, there isn't much here, I went ahead and posted on a diesel pickup forum and it turns out they know more about boating safety than those who posted here, the specific safety related items were noted, as well as an articulate response as to exactly why my first post was confusing.

I don't see this going anywhere, it's starting to look like one of those "what oil is best" threads where seventeen people wind up in the morgue at the end of fifteen pages of drivel.


I would like to thank the following individuals for making an attempt to provide a pertinent response:

Fireman431
ChrisCraftJohnny
45Auto
Slicktified
180shabah
HT32BSX115

 

[muc]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

Hi NapaBavarian,
I think the blanket statement "it can't be done" came from you.
The reason those of us with years of experience in the boat business are trying to talk you out of this has a lot to do with your ?main concern in money?
Marine EFI engines have some sort fuel cooling system on them --- not cheap
?Have the computer reprogrammed to match the cam? might be much easier to say than have done ---- the map in a marine ECM is way different than an auto.
Can you do it? Maybe Will it be cheap? Not by the time you?re done.
Good Luck Muc

 

[E4ODnut]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

NapaBavarian,
Certainly it is possible to do it and do it safely. Whether it meets your local regulations or not may be another matter, but lets leave that aside for now.

Converting a carbed engine to EFI in a car or truck is not a small job. Converting one in a boat is a huge job to do it right, and it must be done right. If you buy an aftermarket marine EFI conversion that uses no O2 sensor, then it must run open loop only according to how the engine program was set up and tuned. By far the easiest and most accurate way to do this is with a wide band O2 sensor. After the tuning is done to satisfaction it is really no longer required and can be left out of the system but the operator has no way of knowing if anything has changed that will result in a change to the desired fuel air ratio.

By far the best way to approach this, if you have the knowledge and determination, is to use a programmable engine management system. In that way you can tune your engine for it's specific application. This is not a small task. I like to compare it to buying a carburetor, with every combination of jets and venturis that was every made for it, and a distributor, with every combination of springs, weights and vacuum actuators. All loose parts. This you bolt to your engine, which has never been run with these parts before. Now you not only have to get it to run, yo have to get it to run as good as or better than the carb and distributor it came from the factory with.

You definitely have enough rope to hang yourself.

So now you have to ask yourself, why am I doing this? If it's to get more power, you probably will, a bit, if you build it and tune it right. If it's to get better fuel economy, you probably will, a bit, if you build it and tune it right. If it's to get better reliability, you probably will, a bit, if you build it and tune it right. Will the results justify the effort and expense? From a financial standpoint, probably never. Will the satisfaction of being able to do something that many say is not doable for whatever reason be justification enough? I hope so.

I've been working with programmable EFI as a serious hobby for over 6 years now and I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing.

Beware, it's addictive.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I would like to thank the following individuals for making an attempt to provide a pertinent response:

Fireman431
ChrisCraftJohnny
45Auto
Slicktified
180shabah
HT32BSX115

You know........I have only been a user/member of this forum for only a "few" years.

This question HAS been asked several times.

There are more than a few people, knowing the risks (legal or otherwise) who have actually successfully built (modified) their own automotive-->marine fuel injection systems. (after all, where do you suppose Merc/Volvo/OMC got theirs?)

The same people (me included) have piped up and informed them of the legal stuff and then pretty much left them alone. A few others have been a little more (shall we say) forceful? in trying to dissuade them.

In anycase, I don't think ANY moderator or other Board "supervisor" can or would advocate doing something illegal. And on other boards, like a one of the Diesel boards I frequent......

They ACTUALLY BAN certain topics that the board supervisors/moderators/owners etc, deem "illegal" (like running RED diesel for example) AND they will BAN people who try to "push" those topics!!

.........I haven't read the iBoats policy in a while.....

I don't think TALKING about or discussing doing things that violate USCG regs is specifically BANNED. (yet.......that will probably happen right after iBoats is named in a wrongful death suit!!!)


So cut us a little slack......if we strongly suggest that you're going down the "wrong" path, get over it.



Cheers,




Rick

 

[NapaBavarian]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

We have a few megasquirt computers lying around, and plenty of programing software, but my room mate is into that more than I am, the computer and programing isn't too hard to take care of, but you've gotta keep it dry somehow.

I'd like to see the actual regulations, I've seen plenty of misunderstood or twisted laws over the years, it's firsthand reading or hearsay, only one stands up in court.

Converting carb to EFI in a car is actually quite easy if the engine is not changing, it's the wiring that can give you fits! Most of that can be alleviated by mapping and identifying each wire, if you change the cam there is another subject.

I figure for about the same cost of overhauling every single part of what I already have I can get the ease of starting, running, and maintaining EFI over a carb, power isn't an issue, woever goes to EFI for power is a little off their rocker, but it may be good for economy if you can get it leaned out a bit.



Muc-
I was asking if it had been done, if your starting price is sub $300 for the long block, intake, and basic fuel injection parts there's plenty left over for safety components, I have no complaint with an educated response that I don't agree with, but saying it'll blow up without even knowing what it is doesn't get anyone anywhere. I searched a bit and didn't find anything on the subject so I wondered if it was a common project.

 

[NapaBavarian]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I had no issue with your response, you made the effort of providing an educated response with justifications for your reasoning.

Is there a specific reg that states that using components from an automotive application is illegal, or what components are legal and what is not? The term "illegal" tends to get thrown around in life plenty, but not everyone really knows what it means, few do, it is in its self a blanket statement unless a specific section is noted.

I think we might be on different diesel forums, I avoid the new hotshot 500hp turned up to the max can't figure out why my transmission blew up guys, stick with the guys who know their way around the engine bay and don't worry so much about the shine or 48 inch chrome reverse rims.

You know........I have only been a user/member of this forum for only a "few" years.

This question HAS been asked several times.

There are more than a few people, knowing the risks (legal or otherwise) who have actually successfully built (modified) their own automotive-->marine fuel injection systems. (after all, where do you suppose Merc/Volvo/OMC got theirs?)

The same people (me included) have piped up and informed them of the legal stuff and then pretty much left them alone. A few others have been a little more (shall we say) forceful? in trying to dissuade them.

In anycase, I don't think ANY moderator or other Board "supervisor" can or would advocate doing something illegal. And on other boards, like a one of the Diesel boards I frequent......

They ACTUALLY BAN certain topics that the board supervisors/moderators/owners etc, deem "illegal" (like running RED diesel for example) AND they will BAN people who try to "push" those topics!!

.........I haven't read the iBoats policy in a while.....

I don't think TALKING about or discussing doing things that violate USCG regs is specifically BANNED. (yet.......that will probably happen right after iBoats is named in a wrongful death suit!!!)


So cut us a little slack......if we strongly suggest that you're going down the "wrong" path, get over it.



Cheers,




Rick

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

So it was already asked but no one answered. What EXACTLY are the USCG rules when it comes to modifying an inboard to FI. It would seem to me that EFI would be substantially better then carbs. Don't argue with me on why. I know more about aftermarket EFI that most. We us DFI on our 2000hp race cars all the time.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

Yeah. This has been argued more than once of course.....

USCG regs are just US LAW.

US law only mentions Carburetors (wouldn't you know it?) and if you read through the major part of it you get the idea that they are mainly talking about Manufacturers. That would imply that homebuilt boats are exempt. (that also might mean that home built systems on manufactured boats are also exempt.)



Who knows? My original point was that the "lawsuit" would probably be civil instead of a Federal one.... (That's the one where you can sue because you spilled coffee on yourself ........ Or for any reason...... it's crazy.....)

That way you wouldn't have to technically be in violation of the below federal laws.....you'd just have to violate the "intent"............. Although I am not a lawyer I have had some run-ins with "boat cops" and they don't care what under the "hood" as long as it's "USCG Compliant"...And the lawyers are interested in winning the case!!



You'll probably notice that there's no mention of fuel injection systems where they talk about "carburetor" requirements.

I think we might be on different diesel forums,

You're right we are.....(on different forums that is.) Every Forum is privately owned. They make the rules that suit them.....


The stuff below will give you a start. The ABYC owns the standards. They're sort of like the ASTM...... they don't post much that is free to download. They want you to buy it....... I do believe all this stuff applies to manufacturers....... But I personally think it would be the lawyers that would convince a jury that someone who modified a boat becomes a de-facto manufacturer and then must comply with all the laws......(that's of course right up there with spilling the hot coffee!!)


I haven't searched for this stuff in quite some time.....




I just want to go boating! My wife yells at me for spending too much time on the computer!

The pertinent parts of the Code of Federal Regulations to Recreational Boating Safety are:

• Vessel Numbering and Casualty and Accident Reporting: 33 CFR 173
• State Numbering and Casualty Reporting Systems: 33 CFR 174
• Manufacturer certification: 33 CFR 181.5-19
• Identification of boats: 33 CFR 181.21
• Display of capacity information: 33 CFR 183.21-27
• Safe loading: 33 CFR 183.31-43
• Safe powering: 33 CFR 183.51-53
• Flotation: 33 CFR 183.101-335
• Electrical systems: 33 CFR 183.401-460
• Fuel systems: 33 CFR 183.501-590
• Ventilation: 33 CFR 183.601-630
• Start-in-gear protection: 33 CFR 183.701-715
• Navigation lights: 33 CFR 183.801-810
• Backfire flame control: 46 CFR 25.35
• Negligent operation
• Operating a vessel while under the influence of alcohol or a dangerous drug
• Numbering undocumented vessels
• Reporting undocumented vessel accidents and casualties
• State numbering and casualty reporting systems
• Carriage and use of personal flotation devices (PFDs)
• Carriage and use of visual distress signals (VDS)
• Carriage of fire extinguishing equipment
• Correction of especially hazardous conditions
• Regulated boating areas
• Vessel identification system

[SIZE=-1]




[/SIZE]You makes your choices and you takes your chances..........


Regards,


Rick


[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

 

[scca vette]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I am not sure what the "law" is when it comes to changing parts around however I agree with "HT32BSX115" that when the regulations were put in place it was do to help with problem of raw fuel in a carburator being basically open to the engine bay, not to mention that a carburator has a vent on the top that also vents to the engine bay. This is not an issue with a fuel injected setup.

I have seen many FI factory car engines in boats at the dealers. I know they used the LT-1 for a few years and now are using the LS platform in some of the higher end boats. I have checked into the LT-1 setup (have not looked at LS do to cost) and all the parts are the same GM part number. I have a couple LT-1 and LT-4 intake setups and have considered using them.

Thought it may not be mentioned in the "law", fuel injection is a safer way to go than a carburator. The only down side is that FI uses a lot higher fuel pressure and I do know that the lines the OEM are using on these are different than the Automotive OEM is using. I have not spent much time researching these parts since checking all the intake parts.

 

[sqbtr]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I have a friend that is a surveyer, I can't find the reg. but, he states, only one fuel line from tank to eng is allowed except in diesels.

The other reg, depending on how you interpet, says if the fuel feed line ruptures you are only alowed 5 oz leak in 2.5 minutes

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

maybe the boating industry and the USCG need to get with the times. Seems even the newest inboards are using outdated technology when it comes to inboards.

 

[NapaBavarian]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I thing we can drop the law suit argument and just ignore it as it is just a Red herring


The statement in question is specific to the fuel injection system and what makes it illegal, as well as what may be unsafe about it.

 

[jaxnjil]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

Can't, there isn't much here, I went ahead and posted on a diesel pickup forum and it turns out they know more about boating safety than those who posted here, the specific safety related items were noted, as well as an articulate response as to exactly why my first post was confusing.

I don't see this going anywhere, it's starting to look like one of those "what oil is best" threads where seventeen people wind up in the morgue at the end of fifteen pages of drivel.


I would like to thank the following individuals for making an attempt to provide a pertinent response:

Fireman431
ChrisCraftJohnny
45Auto
Slicktified
180shabah
HT32BSX115

if your dead set on doing this.

why not take one of the newer and many to choose from diesel pick up engines and swap that in.
the torque gains would be well used on a boat. i have wondered why the boat manufactures are so far behind in this area.
you sound like a guy that could really make it work and you all ready have the resources there in your pickup forum

 

[NapaBavarian]

Re: Has anyone converted to fuel injection with automotive parts?

I actually have considered a mechanically injected diesel, a N/A GM 6.2 from the '80s would fit the bill nicely and excede the factory engines torque spec, improve fuel economy, and I have seen marine manifolds on ebay from time to time, I'm not sure what to do with the outdrive in that case, I understand you can change gearing, and the prop would need to fit the 1800-2000rpm sweet spot of these engines, fuel economy tends to drop off quickly as you run them up.

The biggest advantages are simplicity, very little to break means fewer breakdowns, and range, burning less fuel means taking the boat out more often.