Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

[SVNET]

Hello All,

I was referred to this site from another great site, tinboats.net

I am happy to have found you guys and hopefully I will find some answers...

I am brand new to boating, I just got a 12ft Jon boat with a 5HP Gamefisher engine on it. I have been told that this single cylinder engine was made by FORCE. I believe the engine year is somewhere between 1988 and 1998, model number 225.587500.

Here are the issues.

The owner did warned me that due to a faulty fuel pump, the engine will IDLE great, but when under a load, it will die, gas starvation.

After messing with the fuel pump I reversed the houses on the inlet/outlet of the pump, and that made the engine run, it will start on the first pull and it will rev all the way up smoothly, but it will not IDLE. If I let go of the gas, it will die.

Then another issued arrived, after being able to run the engine for about 10 min, I started to note oil on the back wall of the boat and bucket. Some said it could be a bad seal. I had someone tell me that if the oil is pure black, there is no leak, it is just unburned oil being spit out via the muffler.

It was recommended to use good mercury oil in the gas mix and not to mix it too heavy on oil until it all clears out...

I will be rebuilding the fuel pump, installing a new membrane digraph and also I would like to clean the carburetor to see it that helps it idle better. Some say take the carb apart to clean it, a friend advised not to take the carb apart, to just dump the whole thing assembled into a can of cleaner. The later will be easier but I don't know it that is good for the gasket, bushings, etc...

As you can see, I just have a little of a mess in my hands and would like any help or advice that I could get.

Also, where could I get a service manual for this engine so that I can have something to refer to when I am working on the engine.

In the end I just want this engine to be able to idle and not to die when I step on the gas...

See pictures below.

I reversed the hoses connection from the setup shown in the picture.
I though that the shown setup on the picture was the correct way, but it did not work, the reverse way worked.

Oil being spit out, is it just unburned oil or is it due to a bad seal ?

 

[briguy2817]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

This is what I would do.

Rebuild the carb. and the fuel pump. Sounds like a bad diaphram to me. Don't dump it into a gallon of cleaner thinking it will disolve the varnish inside it. You need to pull the needle out of the float bowl and clean it up. Also, make sure the float is set at the right height. Too low and you'll starve the motor on WOT. You take excellent pictures, simply take a couple dozen more while you take the thing apart to get every nook and crany cleaned up.

As far as the idle, have you tried to adjust the idle screw? It looks like the mixture screw is the one on the left side in your picture. The idle screw would be the one attached to the piece that looks like a tear drop on the top. Hopefully someone that has worked on these thing before will confirm this for you.

Not sure on why you have that much oil coming out of the motor. Definitly not normal. I had an old Sears/Ted Williams and that thing never put out that much oil. I would double check on the mixture, but then again, if you have that much oil in the gas, you'll be fogging for mosquitos as well while it's burned off. My first guess is bad piston rings. Do a leak down and compression test on the motor to see if it seals real well.

What do the plugs look like when you take them out? If you don't have any smoke coming from the engine, the oil would be from the lower unit. Double check the level in there, as well as the color of the oil. I used to use 90wt gear lube in my old motor and would show up milky on top of the water. If there is tha marine grade lube in there I think they're all blue in color.

Hope this gets you started.
Brian

 

[SVNET]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

>> Rebuild the carb. and the fuel pump. Sounds like a bad diaphram to me.

A new Diaphragm should be waiting for me on my PO Box and I am heading there now to pick it up plus some other seals. The fuel pump will get a rebuilt today.

The rebuilt for the Carb, I am a little hesitant on that since I don't feel that confident, but I did take it out and submerged it in a bottle of seafoam, hopefully that will be enough to make it better...

I took the bottom cup off so the float is exposed, and I noticed that the float does not have much room to play, it moves it is not stock, but maybe that is how it is, not sure if a float needs to move a lot to do its job.

I will take another look before I put it back together and see if I can get the float needle out.

One thing to say is that when I open the carb, it looked new, I did not find anything to indicate gumm up stuff or anything like that, very clean, small and simple carb.

Also, make sure the float is set at the right height. Too low and you'll starve the motor on WOT.

I am not sure what is the right height, but I guess I will lift it up a little.

Today I noticed that the previous owner tried to mess around with it, did not know what he was doing and just put everything back together half azz, so I don't doubt that the float is incorrectly set and that is why it is hungry for fuel at wide open...

As far as the idle, have you tried to adjust the idle screw? It looks like the mixture screw is the one on the left side in your picture. The idle screw would be the one attached to the piece that looks like a tear drop on the top. Hopefully someone that has worked on these thing before will confirm this for you.

It is hard to adjusted because it doesn't seem to have too much effect and if I idle for a second it will die so I don't have a lot of time, I guess trial and error will get me to a point where it will idle for a little longer and then I will be able to adjust.

Not sure on why you have that much oil coming out of the motor. Definitly not normal. I had an old Sears/Ted Williams and that thing never put out that much oil.

I will do a new mix today and try again now that the carb has been clean, hopefully that will help...

I would double check on the mixture, but then again, if you have that much oil in the gas, you'll be fogging for mosquitos as well while it's burned off.

There was a lot of fog created while it ran, so I think the mix was incorrect, at least that is what I am hoping....

What do the plugs look like when you take them out?

The plug looked normal when I first removed it, but I have to take it out again so that I can see it now after the fogging...

I will post pictures of everything I have done today later....

If you don't have any smoke coming from the engine, the oil would be from the lower unit. Double check the level in there, as well as the color of the oil. I used to use 90wt gear lube in my old motor and would show up milky on top of the water. If there is tha marine grade lube in there I think they're all blue in color.

I have not even looked at the bottom part of the unit, I am afraid, I will post pictures of the whole bottom so you guys can direct me on what to check...

Thank you.

 

[SVNET]

Frustration....

Frustration....

I cleaned the carb, the float only has a fix level so it can not be adjusted but it seems to be working fine.

The pump kit did not get here today, I ordered on Monday, it should had been here by now but what ever...

Started the engine, and it runs a little better, but still won't idle.

The good news is that now, when in gear, I can rev it all the way up and it won't die, so the gas supply seems to be good.

Starting it is not reliable, sometimes it starts right away, other times I have to pull the cord 5 times before it gets going...

Everyone in town is charging $90+ / HR just to look at it, not fix it.

What next ?

 

[briguy2817]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

First off, you will need to get a manual to tell you the correct float level. I have no idea what it would be because they are all a little different. When you say it is nonadjustable, I think what you mean is you don't see anything to move for an adjustment.

Now, don't move the float until you know what the actual level is supoposed to be, If you just start moving it, you'll either never have the needle shut down or starve the motor worse. Or, you could get lucky and get it completly fixed, but not likely. The float is attached by a little metal tab, what you'll do is bend the tab so the float sits a certain distance from the bowl. But, having said this, I don't think you'll need to move it any, especially if it goes to WOT with no problems now.

But, having said that, it still sounds like the problem is in your fuel pump. Get that rebuilt and it should idle alot better. Do you have a primer bulb on the fuel line? How does it feel when it's running, before starting, and when it won't start? You could try to squeeze the bulb slightly as soon as you get it running, kind of like a booster fuel pump.

You could try spraying a little bit of carb cleaner into the carb to see if it's starving for fuel when it won't start. Just be careful and don't overdue it, a small squirt is sufficient. If it pops off with the carb cleaner, you definitely have a fuel related issue.

Also you need to pull the plug again and see what they look like. Covered in oil/wet or normal. My guess is it is covered in oil from what you have told me.

Just a couple of things off the top of my head, I'll check back later for your progress.You just need a little patience when working on these things and trying to repair it online, we'll get it going for ya.

As far as 90 an hour, that's not too bad, I charge 115 an hour to work on cars. The bill is in the mail, I take cash and major credit cards.

Brian

 

[SVNET]

Got new fuel pump, but...

Got new fuel pump, but...

Hello,

I know, I have to be patient, but I must admit this is getting to me...

I after this whole boat experience, if I can't by new and working, I just won't own a boat, period...

Well, here is the new update...

I got the fuel pump kit and rebuilt it and I can tell that it made a difference because... It is now pumping so much gas, that it is floating the carb. The new issue now is how can I control the carb from getting overfilled and spilling gas....

I tried to adjust the float, but I guess I did it to much and it starved the engine. It is funny because the engine runs fine, the extra gas doesn't seem to bother it, I just don't think is right for that extra gas to be spilling on the engine housing...

Then I adjusted again and now is floating again but not as much. I just don't know what to do anymore.

My mom just asked me, so I don't see you go fishing anymore, you don't like fishing anymore... I just smiled, oh old lady, if you only knew my obsession with getting this boat running so that can go out fishing...

Below are pictures and a video of the engine running... Please HELP.

 

[briguy2817]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

Alright, first off, I warned you not to move the float unless you have a manual handy to set it in the corect position. Having said that, I don't think your too far off from going out on the water, it's just going to take a little bit of playing with now.

First thing, if the fuel is flooding out the carb, you probably have a sticking needle valve. This is the little valve that the float attaches to. Pull the float off and take the needle out. Clean this area up real well with carb cleaner. I usually take 1500 grit sand paper and go over the float surface to get any of the varnish off. Don't use anything too abrasive here. Also, don't force anything into place either. If it doesn't slide in and out easy, you have something wrong, like a burr on the needle.

Once you get the needle freed up, your going to have the manual to get the float height set right. You can move it in small incretements but it will be trial and error and alot of removing the float bowl.

As far as pumping fuel, did you mave the lines back to where they belong? You said earlier that you swaped the lines to get it running. Make sure you have the intake line coming from the tank going into the intake side of the fuel pump.

You have got to have that float height set right for you start adjusting everything else. I'll check back tomorrow sometime.

Brian

 

[SVNET]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

>Alright, first off, I warned you not to move the float unless you have a >manual handy to set it in the corect position.

Learned lesson, if it ain't broken don't try to fix it, and when need fixing, only go as far as it is needed, fix the simple stuff first and try to see if works and only continue further if necessary or if problem persist.

Now how/where do I find a service manual that would specific enough to show me how to set the float, it is an engine made for Force for Mercury and then packaged and sold by Sears, made some where between 1988-1998, model 225.587500.

>>First thing, if the fuel is flooding out the carb, you probably have a >>sticking needle valve. This is the little valve that the float attaches to.

Yep, I had a suspicion about this needle, it seems to move find but the float room of movement just doesn't seem enough to really lock this needle...

Also the little spring that suppose to maintain the needle open unless the gas forces the float to close the needle, I am not sure that I installed that correctly but it seems to be keeping the needle open. I never realize how hard to so wind a spring to be under pressure and at the same time install it where it needs to go, it just refuses to do so...

I do have 1000 grid black sand paper for medal, I will clean up the surface on the float that make contact with everything that moves to make sure it is not sticking to anything.

>>Pull the float off and take the needle out. Clean this area up real well >>with carb cleaner.

Now, what shuts the needle at the top is a little rubber and I have noticed that carp cleaner doesn't do well to rubber, it expands rubber and I am afraid it could deform that little rubber and make it not seal the needle...

>>If it doesn't slide in and out easy, you have something wrong, like a burr >>on the needle.

The needle does slide up and down easy, at least it seems to me, but I just don't see the float being strong enough to actually shut down this needle...

>Once you get the needle freed up, your going to have the manual to get >the float height set right. You can move it in small incretements but it will >be trial and error and alot of removing the float bowl.

Yep, I did it about 3 times already, take the whole carb out, adjusted it, put it back together, try to run it, make it shut and it starved the engine, then almost got it, now it doesn't drip as much, but it still drips a little bit. I will go and try again and this time sanded the way you suggest, that sounds good.

>As far as pumping fuel, did you mave the lines back to where they belong? >You said earlier that you swaped the lines to get it running.

Well, I think the previous owner just had the lines backwards, I try to put it back the way I found it, but then I could not prime the system with the bulb pump, so left it reversed, it seems to work well...

To tell you the truth, I am just guessing here and going by what seems to works, the pump itself doesn't have any markings. I did noticed that one of side of the pump does have a medal filter and I made that side the INLET and that is the way it seems to work best, maybe you can tell me if that is how it usually is...

>Make sure you have the intake line coming from the tank going into the >intake side of the fuel pump.

Does the intake side of the pump is the side with a little internal filter, the other side just goes straight into one of the pump chambers, I made that side the outlet side to the carb.

>You have got to have that float height set right for you start adjusting >everything else. I'll check back tomorrow sometime.

Hey, I appreciated a lot what you are doing here

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

In one of your photos, It appears that the float has a small hole in it that was soldered once. If this is indeed a hole you will need to close it after being certain the float is empty.

Even on these small engines, the float level is set to be even with the carb casting. Invert the carb and adjust the float so that it is parallel to the carb body casting where the cork gasket goes. Adjust the drop so the float does not hit the center tube of the casting. With the carb inverted, the weight of the float should be sufficient to seal the inlet needle. You should not be able to blow through the fuel inlet. Any leak requires replacing either the needle, seat, or both. Do not try to unscrew the fuel inlet nipple on the carb; it is pressed in.

The spring is there to compensate for the weight of the float. You install it with the float, with about 1/2 turn tension so that it TENDS to lift the float when in running position.You set it in position between the float pivot tabs then as you insert the pin, you move the spring back to apply pressure on the float.

For your fuel pump, check the direction of your reed valve. There is only one proper way to connect the fuel lines and I believe the inlet from the tank connects to the screw-in screen nipple. Check the reed itself. it should sit flat with no warping. On these small pumps, if the reed is not perfect or close to it, they will not properly pump fuel.

Buy a Clymers manual or get one or an Intertech manual from your local library. Use it to synchromize the carb opening and timing, and to set the low speed idle needle. Start with the needle one turn out from LIGHTLY seated. Pick up should be at the scribed line on the timing cam. The roller on the carb lever should touch the cam lightly at this scribed line as you advance the throttle.

 

[SVNET]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

Thank you for all the good information, alot of homework you have given me there...

I will be ordering a manual today, don't know from where but I will.
I will also be ordering a carb kit which I am hoping will bring a new needle and seal.

I have Friday off to work on it and I should have all the parts by then.

I will report back and ask for further help on getting everything fine tune at that point.

You touch on some points about calibrating the carb that I will need you to go in further details when I am ready.

Thanks again.

In one of your photos, It appears that the float has a small hole in it that was soldered once. If this is indeed a hole you will need to close it after being certain the float is empty.

Even on these small engines, the float level is set to be even with the carb casting. Invert the carb and adjust the float so that it is parallel to the carb body casting where the cork gasket goes. Adjust the drop so the float does not hit the center tube of the casting. With the carb inverted, the weight of the float should be sufficient to seal the inlet needle. You should not be able to blow through the fuel inlet. Any leak requires replacing either the needle, seat, or both. Do not try to unscrew the fuel inlet nipple on the carb; it is pressed in.

The spring is there to compensate for the weight of the float. You install it with the float, with about 1/2 turn tension so that it TENDS to lift the float when in running position.You set it in position between the float pivot tabs then as you insert the pin, you move the spring back to apply pressure on the float.

For your fuel pump, check the direction of your reed valve. There is only one proper way to connect the fuel lines and I believe the inlet from the tank connects to the screw-in screen nipple. Check the reed itself. it should sit flat with no warping. On these small pumps, if the reed is not perfect or close to it, they will not properly pump fuel.

Buy a Clymers manual or get one or an Intertech manual from your local library. Use it to synchromize the carb opening and timing, and to set the low speed idle needle. Start with the needle one turn out from LIGHTLY seated. Pick up should be at the scribed line on the timing cam. The roller on the carb lever should touch the cam lightly at this scribed line as you advance the throttle.

 

[SVNET]

Got the Carb Kit

Got the Carb Kit

Well,

I got the carb KIT today and it seems to have just about all the parts that needs to be replaced.

Koodos for those guys at www.discount-marine-parts.com

The kit they sent me has been sealed for 15yrs, it was packaged on 10/8/1993.

I could not even believe these people keep those parts around for this long.

I also got from them the service manual for this particular engine as well, I couldn't believe those books are still around either...

It is time to rumble, but I probably won't get to it until Friday or Saturday.

It is getting darker earlier now and when I get home I have to set time apart for the family before I can touch the boat or anything else... My little one now awaits for me with a huge smile and no teeth... Steals my heart

I will keep you guys updated.

 

[SVNET]

I got it done...!

I got it done...!

Well,

Last night I rebuilt the carburetor and this morning I did a bucket test.

For not knowing what I am doing, I was able to make it idle, no more smoking, no more gas over flowing and it revs high.

If the rain stop and the day gets better I will be taking it to the lake to test it and will report at that point.

Out to see the Gator home coming parade.

Thank you so much to all of you who tried to help me...!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXxRQsVoSeE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddb6-TkAnws

 

[briguy2817]

Re: Hello All - I am new here - Need HELP

Sorry I haven't been around to help more. I was away for the week on a conference. Looks like you got it going alright. If you need more help. Let me know.

Brian