help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

thefishingfreak

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it's a 1990 250 vx76 carbed,oil injected.<br /><br /><br />i melted a piston about a month ago.no apparant reason for the meltdown,i think a ring broke?hence the little pieces of ring forcefully imbedded in the piston.<br />anyway,,,<br /> i did the- rebuild the powerhead thing,new piston, rings, head, honed out the sleeve, etc...<br />she ran mint, tooled all over the place. no sweat.<br />other day were out, i'm toolin' along at 5000 rpm's for an hour, i crack the throttles a tad more then she starts cutting out??<br /> <br />fuel pumps are new last season. <br />when they went bad last year,,,,,,,<br /> i got the "wha-wha-wha-wha-wha-wha" very constant rpm raise and drop, say 200 rpm's.<br /> <br />now,,, completly different kind of cutting out.<br />"wha-buh-buh-buh-wha-buh-wha-buh" pinned the thing to the boards, she won't stay running. slowly comes down to a painfull idle, then dies. no chance in heck to fire it up again.<br /> <br />we get back to the slip,<br />crank,buh-buh-buh.<br />crank,buh-buh-buh.<br />crank,buh-buh-buh.<br />over and over, you could do it a hundred times same thing.<br /> starts, runs for maybe six or seven revs, then dies.<br />switched brains- coil packs- plugs from the other engine. no dice.other engine still runs mint.<br />disconect fuel pump line to carbs, tons of pressure there.disconect cold start lines to cold start injectors, tons of pressure there. injectors are pulsating, like they should. <br />i say screw it and go home.<br /> <br />i gown today,<br /> same thing, won't start.<br />i blast the carbs with wd40 {only flamable thing i could find}--- brmmmmm!!!!!! bingo!! fires right up. <br />she runs mint,,,,,idled for 1/2 hour, cruised over to the fuel dock, shut it off and fired it up a couple times, schweet, problem solved.<br />NOT !!!!<br />we start heading out,, get all the way to the inlet {1/2 hour} at 2400 rpm's,,,gets up on a plane no problem,, run for 20 minutes at 47,48,49,5000 rpm's like a champ,no sweat, then same thing.<br />wha-buh-buh-wha-buh-wha-buh-buh-buh-painfull idle-then dies!!!!!<br /> what the???<br /> crank over,,, same thing,,,, runs for two seconds-dies. over and over again.<br /> <br />i'm friggin' dumbfounded???<br />when you start them cold, the cold start injectors fires extra fuel, and the timing retards 7 degrees atdc, to make it eisier to start, then when they get warm, timing goes back to 7 degrees btdc and the injectors shut off.they also cut out alternating cly's when giong slow{i'm thinking the brain does this? hence the brain-coil packs-plugs swap}.<br />there's a glass jar in-line with the fuel, and there ain't no gunk or water in there.<br />i havent touched the water separators, but i figgure with the glass jar i would see a problem in the fuel.and,,,<br /> the other engine runs mint, never skips a beat with the old water separators that take fuel from the same tank.<br />help..... i wanna go fishing.<br />mike
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

what piston melted?<br />could be a fuel problem. could be a stator problem. what was done at the rebuild? was it a total recondition or a patch?<br /> good luck and keep posting but if you dont know why the first piston smoked odds are your going to have another
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

thanks for the feedback. <br />i got all six carbs off and i'll go thru them tomorrow. <br /><br />the piston that melted was #6 lowest one.<br />seems alot of chat on the net about #6 is allways the first to go?<br />it was a patch job.<br />new piston,rings,head,honed out the sleeve{which was still mint} then slap it back together.<br />it's carb was cristal clean inside, the oil injection checks out.<br />only thing i can think is a ring broke?<br />i was over 5000 rmp when it let go and basicly seized once it focefully came down to stall.<br />siezed up solid. starter wouldn't budge it. after cool down it started again, wasn't pretty, but it ran.<br />i did the patch job and she ran mint for 5 hours or so,,,, then this new problem???<br /><br /><br />i forgot to say, <br />the two days she died on the water we were in almost exactly the same place. <br />i get thru the inlet, get up on a plane then level out to 5000 rpm's. then she'd die at almost the same bouy, say a mile out. <br />twice in two days, all we can make it to is that bouy, allmost exactly!!! <br /><br />hmmm, <br />i'm thinking she's using up say a gallon of fuel, then not able to get any more fuel and dies. <br />say just enough to run to that specific bouy a mile out. <br />gonna take appart everything from the tank, to the electric fuel pump, the separators, the motor and blow it all out. make sure it's not restricted. <br /><br />first i was thinking electrical problem, but last night it hit me... <br />no friggin' way could an electrical problem cause it to die in the same place two days back to back? <br />i'll post more when i figgure it out. <br />thanks agian, <br />mike
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

if the t-stats are sticking open or removed the thermosensor will see it as still being in warmup and allow the enrichment circuit to drain the fuel from #6 carb. that can fry the piston. it took me a few to find it. but a bad t-stat on that motor can cause #6 fuel bowl to be drained.<br /> check it out very closely. patching them is ok as long as your aware that if done right it can last a long time. if not you will get very frustrated. I have patched a lot of crabber engines and they still go.<br />you can test for with with the diagnostic lamp. it will flash a code 33 when warming up or the computer thinks it warming up.<br />good luck and keep posting<br /><br />]
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

first off,<br />thanks for the help rodbolt!!!<br /><br />i went thru all six carbs today,,,,like new.<br />new water seperators, very little crud in there, even for four years old :) <br />cleaned out the glass{plastic} jar,,,a couple little chunky things on the bottom but nothing that could get past the fine mesh screen and into the carbs.<br />blow everything out{with portable tire tank}, all's good.<br />bolt the carbs back on, adjust all the linkage.<br />wont start,,but it's better than it was, get maybe 15 revs before it dies.<br />i blast the carbs with carb cleaner,,"brummmmmmm"<br />fires right up.<br />ok, let it run for ten-fifteen minutes. seems to idle to high. so,,,,, i'm thinking to much fuel{cold start is still on???} i go to disconect the red plug for the cold start pump. AHHH-HAAA!!! black ground is falling out of the conector! i found it!!!!<br />re work it to fit back in nicely.<br />all seems good.<br />i get thru the inlet and really let her have it!<br />schweet,,runs like a champ!!<br />i do a victory lap arround the harbor for an hour, all's well.<br />then same sh*t!!<br />starts cutting out!<br />but this time is different, she dosen't die! stays running coughing and farting{idles nice}.<br /> rip the cover off, i'm like i got you now!!! stinky, burning eyes{running too rich}!!!<br />i'm thinking cold start pump ground wire, nope. it's still good.<br />i disconnect the throttle linkage, give it a couple cracks to try to get some rpm's. sounds like it's missfiring on one cylinder.<br />brm-baha-brm-pop-brm-bha.<br />i disconect the cold start pump red plug. give it a couple cracks brmmmmmm-brmmmmmm.nice!!<br />schweet, i found the problem??<br />so i try to run with the cold start fuel pump disconnected, runs great,,,, got no power!, but runs great.tops out at 2500 rpm {if i help it with the other motor}.<br /><br />why won't it get any power with that elictric motor unplugged?<br />i thought it was only for cold starts?<br /><br />anyway, thats whear it stands now.<br />mike
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

have you replaced all the low pressure pumps? your fighting a fuel issue.<br /> the electric pump runs all the time. the pressure regultaor can fail. the cold start valve bypasses the 6 enrichment solinoids on the carbs. the solinoids are triggered by the ecu at cold start, when the knock sensor detects a knock and when the tps and the crank position sensor tell the ECU that the trottle was just opened rapidly. dont run it much with the cold start on. if its running rich on gas its lean on oil. the oil system has no way of knowing that to much fuel is being ingested.<br /> time to do a complete fuels system inspection.<br /> good luck and keep posting
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

thanks again rodbolt!!!<br /><br />i'm thinking i got two problems here.<br />one, it won't start cold without ether.<br />two, it just cuts off on me for no reason.<br /><br />the three other fuel pumps are new last year.{not rebuilts, new.}<br />t-stats are new last year{checked them out tonight too}.water pump, this year.<br />motor is nice and evenly warm all over{checked the other night after she shut off on me}{heads even, block even}not too hot to touch, but just right. bye hand, no hot spots,no cool spots. <br /><br />i went down tonight. turned the key on and the electric pump didn't come on!!!<br />hmmm,,<br />after 15 seconds or so of leaving the key on the pump comes on.<br />so,,, know i know that pump is no good! maybey the reason for cutting out and dying on me?<br />i didn't mess arround with it too much.<br /><br />first problem i gotta figure out is the no start issue. this thing has been geting hard to start cold for some time now{deffinitly neglect on my part!}, but a couple cracks of the throttle usually wakes it up. so i never bothered fixing it.<br /><br />i'm gonna swap parts from the other engine untill she fires right up{like the other one does}.<br />i'll swap the crank sensor,try it.<br />the knock sensor, try it.<br />the tps sensor, try it.<br />the thermoswitch, try it.<br />i've allready swapped the cdi units/coils.<br />anything else you can think of to swap to get it to cold start?<br />i know it's getting fuel and the injectors check out.<br />other than that the only thing is the stator, right??{i'm thinking it's not retarding the timing when the cdi tells it to??}<br />it will start, with a little help from a spray bomb.<br /><br />then,, the next problem is the cutting out?<br />once i get it to cold start i'll swap the electric pumps and see if the other engine dies on me after cruising for a while.<br /><br />does the electric pump supply fuel thru the injectors when your just hauling allong? say 5000 rpm's?<br />or is it an "on demand" type injector system?<br /><br />thanks again for the help!<br />when i get this figgured out i'll send you some custom lures i make for your trouble.<br />mike
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

before ya go to janky on me you really need to understand how the system works. the TPS just feeds a voltage to the CDI based on throttle angle. it uses a 5 volt reference on the orange wire. the pick off voltage is taken off the pink to red leads.you must have the proper test harness and service manual to properly check or set the TPS. the ign timing is normally someplace about 7* ATDC when normal. for cranking and some trouble defaults it will advance and lock at 7*BTDC.The Knock sensor has nothing to do with cranking.<br /> on the no start without ether. that one is simple. the cold enrichment circuits are not working.the elactric pump runs anytime the key is on. if it does not something is wrong. it keeps pressure from #6 fuel bowl on all the enrichment solinoids. if it fails poof no enrichment and poof no start cold. the CDI toggles the grounds on the enrichment solinoids to allow them to dribble fuel into the intake for cold start . if you advance the throttle more than about 10% the system goes nuts and poof its very hard to start.the stator gives a voltage to the CDI not the other way around. I doubt its your stator on the cold start issue. I really dont care what was replace a year ago. a few years ago the motors were brand new but as we are having this conversation something screwed up in the ensuing years. this system is complex but simple. take it to a yammi dealer or buy or borrow the diagnostic test lamp. if no codes are set then dont swap parts. parts swapping is a very good way to have to poor running engines.<br /> good luck and keep posting
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

i'm buying the yamaha test lamp tomorrow!<br />you da man!
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

hello<br /> also buy the harness for setting the TPS. its about 8 dollars or so. if you have a service manual its very easy to set and check. the ignition timing will be based nostly on a signal from the TPS. and they do fail sometimes.<br />the test lamp rarely tells me what is broke but it will tell me what I dont have to spend time testing. if you still have problems I will see if I can scan some pages from my traing manuals.
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

thanks.<br />is the test lamp the same as the cdi testor?<br />i have the clymers book and it covers mostly everything,but you mentioned it will flash code 33.<br />the book says the cdi testor is usually a dealer item{as in mucho bucks}<br />mike
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

called five places to get the "yamaha pocket tester" no dice. one week special order part.<br />i have a snap-on digital ohmmeter. <br />can i test with that?
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

its not a pocket tester. its the diagnostic lamp also known as the winky blinky. anyway there are some failures that can turn off the cold start enrichment.<br /> lets go look for them. you can test almost all the sensors with your multimeter, you may have to make some jumper leads to fit the pins. sometimes you can flatten out small strips of solder.<br /> post me all your steps and an email address and I will try to scan you some info from the training guides to show how it all works. my father is in the hospital and has been given 2 to 6 weeks left so I am rather busy. if I dont respond rapidly its cause I am busy with that. now I gotta go back to work so I can buy hay for the poor horse :) :) <br /> good luck and keep posting
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

tonights progress.<br /><br />i try the key on, electric pump is working.<br />ohmmeter the tps.523 and 526<br />ohmmeter the crank trigger.checks out.{i forgot my notes on the boat so i'm not gonna guess #'s, but it was within specs}<br />disconect #1 injector, hit it with a test light,try to crank it, light pulses.<br /> she friggin' fires right up?? ohh,, what the??<br /> now i'm like,,,, what the ????<br /> it wouldn't cold start for two days, now it fires right up?<br />all seems whell.<br />i get it up on plane, alls whell. go thru the rpm ranges,full throttle,back to idle,back up on plane,all's whell.<br />cruisin' at 4700 rpms- i hammer the throtle quick, starts cutting out. ahh ha!!!!<br />wha-wha-wha-wha-wha. ok, i got it to do it again!<br />come down to idle.<br />idles sputtery.<br />disconect the tps,idle smooths out ohmmeter the tps again, checks out.523.<br />reconnect the tps, sputters.<br />disconnect the electric pump, smooths out.<br />reconnect the pump, sputters.<br />disconect the thermosensor, smooths out.<br />reconnect the thermosensor, sputters.<br />disconnect all six injectors, no change.<br />{when i say sputters, it's like it's misfiring one cylinder "cutting out".i raise the rpm's bye hand, and it cuts out}wha-huh-wha-huh-huh-wha-huh.<br /><br />i swap the tps from the other engine, no change.<br />but,,,, now the other engine is now cutting out. wha-wha-wha-wha.<br />so,,, tps is definitly bad!<br />but problem engine still coughs and farts with the good tps.and had only 1/2 power.<br />i'm calling the yamaha guy tomorrow.<br />e-mail is thefishingfreak@rcn.com<br /><br />thank for the help.<br />i'll say a prayer for your father tonight:)<br />mike
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

you cant ohm the tps. it must be set by voltage. I am willing to bet you have a fuel problem. but I have seen some TPS failures due to the wiper not making good contact on the wires inside the unit. the only way to find that is with an analog meter as the digital cannot respond quick enough.<br /> the reason why its smooths out and the RPM increases is when a sensor is "disconnected" the ECU sees a failure. it then locks the timing at 7* BTDC.I have seen some stator failures that drove techs nuts. the only way to find it is to measure the peak voltage output while running to see if it falls off.good luck with a yamaha tech. if they try to sell you an ECU ask what testing determined that failure and if the part does not cure the problem who is buying the part.<br /> good luck and keep posting
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

i found it, i found it, i found it!<br /><br />FINALY !!<br /><br />thanks rodbolt for the crash coarse in yamaha fuel enrichment and sensors!<br /><br /><br />here it is:<br /><br />things just were not adding up?<br />one minute it cuts out one way, the next minute it cuts out another way? one minute the electric fuel pump works, the next minute is dosn't?<br />one minute it cold starts? the next minute it won't????????????????????<br /><br /><br />tps was definitly bad! made good motor start cutting out. problem #1 SOLVED !!<br />says right in the manual, that i've read like a hundred times,"tps is usually the first to fail which causes eratic timing" DOHH!{read every single page next time dummy!}<br /><br />second was the cold start issue:<br />after exausting every possible problem.<br />i take a razor blade and open up the main engine harness.<br />guess what???<br />every single injector wire splice is falling appart with corrosion! some not even connected at all! probably just enough voltage to light the test light.and,,,,, you know what else is spliced into the same power lead as the injectors that was badly corroded? <br />the electric fuel pump!<br /><br />i did a quick patch job on the wiring and she fired right up,<br />schweeeeeeeta!!!<br /><br />i bought a "dunked" motor for 500 bucks and i'm rippin the wire harness out to swap in the morning.{not before i open it up and check connections}<br /><br />wanna know how the corrosion got in there?<br /><br />i had a crack in the exaust cover{like two years ago} that would spray salt water on the coil packs and guess what else? that main harness!<br /><br />thanks again rodbolt!<br /> "you da man"! <br />yamaha mechanic is gonna be pissed:)when i cancel<br /><br />mike:)
 

rodbolt

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

hahahah<br /> maybe, but he is still not employed by maytag.<br /> the splices on the harness are definatly not water proof. if the harness you are getting has been dunked it will fail as well. glad to see ya got it rolling<br /> good luck and keep posting
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

no worrry's man.<br />i'm checkin' out the "dunked" harness all the way :) <br />gonna take two rolls of tape, but i'm checkin' it out.<br />mike
 

thefishingfreak

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Re: help,,,,, yamaha VX76' 250 dosn't like me AT ALL!

all's well!!!.<br />i ran 80 miles today, and they didn't skip a beat :) <br /><br />gotta love those old yamaha's :) <br />mike
 
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