Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

[xtraham]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

I am also ase and factory certified in all aspects of auto/truck repair, (25+ years)

and techno is right, that is a copy and paste from a web site that I was giving advise about the same prob. that I resolved in a couple of post, I have seen this many times on the 6.9 and 7.3's and is normally only caused by the few things mentioned, normally the simpler, but I was giving all options...
but anyway have at it good luck............

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

[colour=blue]Sorry Ray, diesel isn't my thing. But I must admit, when I read your post my first thought was an injector with a prostate problem.

QC and DJ are far more qualified than I. My advice is to heed their advice.

Good ol' diplomat Aldo! I am heeding all advice and gleaning the useful from the useless. Imagine yourself in the position of being responsible for the running of this engine. With respect to what has been said, what is my next step, Sir. I am sorry but the prostrate analogy eludes me.
Thanks Mr Moderator for trying to keep things civil. I am certain that you are emminently qualified in diesel mechanics.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

So what does an engine do under a load that it doesn't do without a load?

More fuel which results in more heat and combustion pressure which results in better combustion.

Techno, think of your fuel injection pump (pump with a bunch of lines, right?) as a distributor. It has to be "initial" timed to the cam and crank combo. And then, like a distributor, it needs to advance in timing as speed and load increases. i.e. more fuel, needs to start earlier. On a pump and line system that is usually achieved by an advance on the drive gear for the injection pump. This may have some gears and flyweights and springs and stuff. This could be installed off a few degrees or stuck advanced.

None of this is still proper diagnostics. Sounds like we have eliminated compression, fuel (you seemed to indicate multiple tanks) and air, but I am not convinced we have eliminated heat although the white smoke at restart would seem to indicate we have.

I am still leaning toward timing and/or a dribbling injector at low idle delivery. Just things to think about. I am more inclined to think timing as it is isn't missing . . .

I won't exclude the possibility that the the timing was off at instalation, but that was over 15000 mles ago. I ran most of that with the old injectors. I changed the injectors and this improved the running of the engine. I like Mr Moderators comments but wish he could be a little more specific as to the actual cause or remedey. This is a standyne pump and quite common in diesel applications. There are two elecrtical connections on the pump. One acts a shut off or anti-diesel the other am not sure of the complete function but have been told that it is a fuel temperature sensor. The engine will run whether it is in place or not.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

I am a Master Certified Diesel Technician (by International-makers of that engine) but I'm not going to be slammed or accused of a cut and paste. Besides, what's wrong with that?

Iquote]
Nothing is wrong with a cut an paste provided it brings a solution. I recognized the quote but my remarks were directed at the inacuraccy of the other comments.

I thought better of my first response.

What was your first response, I missed it?
I think we are on the right track, just need to keep plodding until we come up with the right combination.

 

[RPJS]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Hi Tehcno,
I ran your problem passed a diesel tech at work (ex navy, knows his stuff) he thinks that you have one or more dripping injectors, if you still have the old ones he recomended you change your new ones out one at a time and see if the problem goes away.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Thanks, RPJS. I am sure if your friend could do a hands on on this engine he would rememdy problem mach snell. I changed the injectors I had as the engine was begining to smoke at idle. I have seen this problem and it is nothing compared to the great billows of smoke the engine is now producing. It has also been suggested that the valve guides are worn and this is allowing engine oil into the combustion chamber. I have ruled this out as the engine does not use appreciable oil and what little it is using is associated with external seals and gaskets. This problem came on all of a sudden so my conclusion is that it is a componet failure, ie fast idle solenoid etc. Because the diesel is a cleanburn (reburn) engine unurned fuel is recirculated or atomized. It smells different and looks different than burned engine oil or water vapor. Since injector failure is uncommon and I have recieved such a limited service live from these injectors I am going to return to the source for replacement under warranty, if applicable.

 

[DJ]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Techno-whatever,

I like to help, when I can. But you are like trying to pet a porcupine.

Give us some real data and we can help. The 6.9 is ancient technology (great in its day). This is NOT rocket science.

Somehow, I have the suspicion that we are getting half the story.

If you really want help, say so, Otherwise, back off the insults and give some real information.

Unlike Dockside Chat (open opinions), we actually do care and want to help. That is what this board is all about-look up.

BTW, you say you replaced the injectors. That means nothing. New/rebuilt means nothing-again. It just means: New/rebuilt, it does NOT mean-GOOD.

No way to tell without putting all eight on an injector stand. Same goes for the pump.

But, what do I know?

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

The glow plug relay is out but the engine still starts relatively easy.

The fact that your glow plugs aren't working is enough to cause smoking.
On the Mercedes oil burners I work on the glow plugs are pulsed after startup to help abtain a clean burn/smooth idle.

Usually when injectors are not working optimally especially bad enough to cause severe white smoke, the idle quality will be poor and it's likely you will hear a knock (injector knock) caused by poor atomization of the fuel.

 

[QC]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

BTW, you say you replaced the injectors. That means nothing. New/rebuilt means nothing-again. It just means: New/rebuilt, it does NOT mean-GOOD.

No way to tell without putting all eight on an injector stand. Same goes for the pump

In the words of another great technician, Ayuh . . .

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Techno-whatever,

I like to help, when I can. But you are like trying to pet a porcupine.

This is NOT rocket science.

Somehow, I have the suspicion that we are getting half the story.

If you really want help, say so, Otherwise, back off the insults and give some real information.


But, what do I know?

Without a doubt you are the nicest mean spirited person. I have no doubt that is due to self immersion. I have done my best to state the circumstances as they exist and am only looking for direction. As a matter of fact I spoke with a fuel shop yesterday to ascertain the usefulness of running the injectors and the pump and they said they would gladly take my money but that it was a little premature at this stage of the game. If this engine were your responsibility what would be your action? I have a friend who is the service manager of the local ford agency and he would gladly take my money win lose or draw, but since he is a friend I would rather not put him in the positon of putting a lot of time into it and then having no justification for the charge. Thanks for your concern and I am sure you are very bright and capable technician. It is not my intention to insult anyone. I appreciate all help and perhaps it would be useful if you ask specific questions with regard to the symptoms instead of being reactionary about the problem. Thanks again.

 

[QC]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Techno,

From the beginning I have felt that you need to get the glow plugs right as Skinnywater has mentioned. They definitely help with white smoke at startup. Just need to eliminate them and since we're heading toward winter you really need them anyway . . .

If that doesn't solve it, then I would have the injectors tested as they are simple to remove and take to a fuel Injection shop. I have been reluctant to pinpoint the injectors as you stated somewhere up there that a balance test (cracking the lines) did not indicate one injector was having less of an effect on idle quality (one with least effect with line "cracked" open would be the suspect hole).

After that I would want the initial timing checked and the timing advance mechanism inspected. If those things check out good, then I would want to bench test the injection pump. This is all speculation on my part as ALL of my experience is CAT. They did use that same style pump and line system with pencil nozzles (injectors) though., so I have some relevant experience.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Thanks QC, The Glow plugs themselves are sound. I have been particularly careful as once one fails the rest take themselves out quite rapidly. The problem is not in starting per se but definitely some electrical failure. The problem of smoke remains constant until the engine is put under load. Once it has run at load or fuel demand is increased the over-fueling smoke is dissipated. Timing has not changed and the presence of this problem was sudden. I believe that i have eliminated the inectors as a problem but fuel delivery in inapproriate amounts is occurring. Once a diesel has been over fueled only time or more air will cure it. we have tried forcing air through the system but have not been able to supply enough air in a single gulp to balance the fuel mixture. I will continue to plod along with my meager resources and let you all know the outcome. In most cases of perplexing issues like this it is a simple thing but so far the simple solution has not remedy the problem. I am,. however, confident that when the remedy is found it will be something simple and not catastropic pump failure or multiple injection failure. Have you heard directly from Aldo? I get an email when I prod. Thanks.

 

[QC]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

A couple of things. I don't think this problem is electrical . . . If it was the fast idle solenoid, which I assume would just push on the control rack inside the pump or governor control lever (throttle), she would simply not idle faster when you wanted her to or idle faster all of the time. There is no way that the governor can magically add more fuel without the engine turning faster unless the fuel is not being delivered properly i.e. injector spray pattern. This is why I still suspect the injectors.

Initial timing is probably not the issue as it came on all of a sudden unless again the timing advance failed, although I would expect that to be a high speed problem, not idle. Remember, white smoke is not over fueling per se, it is unburnt fuel or incomplete combustion. This is why the injectors remain suspect. If they are dribbling or not closing completely there is more fuel longer than you want it. Once you bring her up in load (higher fuel rates) they can clear up pretty nice and/or burn the excess fuel as heat and combustion pressure have both increased. Think of it like this, the injector keeps dribbling as the piston travels down, it comes back up and the injector is still dribbling, nothing happens on the exhaust stroke and the injector(s) may still dribble a little as we're now heading down on intake. Now it comes around to fire again and there is a nice little tiny puddle of fuel sitting on top of the piston. You get a decent spray momentarily for the next idle fire event, but that little puddle is trying to burn but can't very well because a) there is not enough heat and b) puddles don't burn like nice spray patterns do. It may not miss in this example, but just keep smoking as it tries to burn that puddle and the puddle continues to get bigger. By any chance is your oil level increasing? :%

Jamming in more air is meaningless. There is already and always excess air at idle, but this is not an issue for a diesel. I am a little unclear about how bad she smoked before and after the injector change and how long ago you changed those injectors. Also, this is one that you are not going to want to hear, but just because she has good compression on a compression check does not mean she is getting good enough compression at idle to have good clean combustion. Many diesels have tapered rings and they seal better as combustion pressure increases. This means that although they seat well under higher loads, they might not be quite fresh enough to seat well at idle . . .

Just more stuff to help muddy this situation. Please understand that good technicians (I am not one, but I have managed them) never eliminate a possibility unless they have really/truly eliminated it. You have eliminated things by contemplating them, not by eliminating them . . .

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Great stuff, QC. Let me bring you up to date. Against my better judgement i pulled the injectors and marched off to the fuel shop where they pop tested the intectors All were sealing well and breaking good. pattern was passible to excellent. While there i discussed the sypmtons with the bench tech and he suggested that perhaps the newer fuel might be the culprit. He gave me some mechanic in a bottle (not Glenffidich) and suggested I try it for a tankful. Having ascertained the injectors to be passable I asked if he thought the pump should be run, what do you think he said?
The engine does not "manfacturer" oil but it does "use" a little between changes. Here again I am very faithful about changing the oil and most people think I overchange but 3000 miles is stil the bench mark for me.
The engine never really smoked much before I changed the injectors but the engine seem to be losing power, especially under heavy load. After the injectors were changed there was a noticible increase i power and fuel economy. If you missed it here I mentioned that The "new pump" has about 15000miles on it and the injuectors no more than 5000.
When the pump was first installed the engine did not idle and often died. I took it to a fellow who claims to be Me Diesel and he made some screw adjustments and the idle seem normal from then on.(at least it did not die) Do these screw adjustments have an effect on the timing, ie if the timing were retarded could you compensate for that by changing the scew adjustment sort of like pulling the choke to compensate for a leaky valve'? Please muddy the water further so I can see what appears to be the bottom.

 

[QC]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

A source who will remain nameless has given me a good link:

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4974

Take a look at the "Cold Timing Advance" solenoid. That could be promising although we're still bouncing around and speculating . . .

Good luck!!

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

A source who will remain nameless has given me a good link:

http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4974

Take a look at the "Cold Timing Advance" solenoid. That could be promising although we're still bouncing around and speculating . . .

Good luck!!

QC, you are uhbelievable.
Where is the speculation?
The problem or the solution? I would really like to avoid the shotgun approach to solving this problem, but have already fell victim to doing something and then saying, "no that ain't it". Why should the source remain nameless? Because, it is you? o: At this point I still have a lot of things to rule out. After I have changed the cold advance solenoid what is next?
Do you think I should bench test the pump? What about the screw adjustments? How do they relate to the timing?How does the cold advance solenoid relate to pump timing? Please have patience as I am a very slow learner.

 

[QC]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

I said speculating only because we are not testing nor following a troubleshooting list from a service manual. With proper tooling you could test the advance and initial timing . . . Very hard to avoid the shotgun approach without that stuff.

I actually typed out a response on the screw thing last night, but it was deleted by operator error . . . and I just gave up. Anyway, the adjustment done on the pump with the screw was probably the low idle adjustment which is nothing more than a stop. It is illustrated in that link. Nothing to do with timing. I am guessing that the cold advance solenoid advances pump timing for cold start-up . . . It could be fine and the timing advance system itself is effed. Again without the proper stuff, I am not sure you can avoid throwing parts at it.

I am still confused about your glow plugs. You say that the relay is out, but also that they are fine . . . ??

 

[bomar76]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Why on earth are you guys wasting your time trying to help Technoidiot?
He contributes NOTHING of substance to the forum, argues aginst any statement, belittles everyone, is an expert on everything, and is a general PITA...
Let Ray take the POS to International for a good wallet reaming.

 

[technostingray]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Why on earth are you guys wasting your time trying to help Technoidiot?
He contributes NOTHING of substance to the forum, argues aginst any statement, belittles everyone, is an expert on everything, and is a general PITA...
Let Ray take the POS to International for a good wallet reaming.

You are wrong bomar, I have never belittled you. I guess that is because you do such a fine job belittling yourself.
Will continue to post progress on PM QC. Or go to the diesel stop. dot com

 

[xtraham]

Re: Hey Dunaruna or good diesel mechanic

Proplem Solved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Install this..............

but if it's over legal age it may never quit....8)