Home Light Switch challenge

[massimofinance]

I started to replace broken light switches in my house and decided to swap them all over to white, clean, modern ones. I replaced what I thought were three and four way switches yesterday, but those don't work. I matched the wires to the old switch (or so I thought). There are red wires in the wall. Weird thing is some rooms (basement, kids playroom) where I didn't touch anything the switch also doesn't work now! I will post a picture later of the switch I removed (had 4 screws but no ground) but I think maybe instead of it being a four way, its a double pole? I read a double pole says ON and OFF on it. The old LEVITRON switches did not say ON and OFF. I watched some videos online how to do it, but any help is appreciated. Also, is it bad for the house to shut off the main each time? my fuse box isn't labeled. thx

 

[ThomW]

Pictures would definitely help. Also, some more information on what each light switch is for, and which fixtures are controlled by one switch, two switches, or more!
From what I recall, a double pole switch will always have a ground screw. It is meant for a single 240 appliance, or two 120 sources with a single switch. I can't imagine a double pole switch being used, unless the same switch turned off 2 separate lights, or controls a 240 appliance.
The red wires are usually a traveler wire, meant to connect 3 and 4 way switches to each other. if you removed a red wire from one switch, or installed it onto the wrong screw, it will make any other switches connected to that 3 way or 4 way switch (a switch where that same red wire goes) no longer work.
You should have three colored wires. Red is traveler wire, white is common, and black is the hot wire. They each need to be connected to the correct sides of the switches or the entire circuit won't function correctly.
If you are changing switches that control the same light--like on a stairwell, or separate entrances to the same room--they must be either 3 or 4 way switches.
As for the last question, there is no real danger in shutting off the main breaker each time, except that you'll have to reset all the clocks each time!!!:lol: Still better than getting a shock from a wire you thought was dead!

Get some picture up and I may be able to give you more specific answers, as to this generic electrical information that you may already know!

 

[massimofinance]

ThomW- thanks for the response. I will remove the wall plates tomorrow and take pictures of my wiring job, but here is the 4 way plug I removed.

Below are the switches that aren’t working. I labeled each set a series for ease of reference.

Series A- two switches- controls a ceiling light. On the other side of the wall for one of these is two switches that aren’t controlling the lights in that playroom room now.
Series B- 3 switches, controls another ceiling light
Series C- four switches, only one works now, which controls 8 flood lights outside. The first is one of the switches of Series B. the third one controls four outdoor lights. the fourth controls three porch lights. This four gang is on the other side of the bathroom, where the switch doesn’t work now.
Series D- two switches, at bottom of stairs, one is part of series B, the other one controls a light at top of stairs.
Series F- two switches, one controls the light controlled by Series B, the other controls the light at top of stairs.
Series G- one switch, controls the light at top of stairs.

Not sure why the basement lights don’t work.

Hope this helps; if you look at this picture and tell me its a four way switch, then I think I just mixed wiling the four ways up and will need to redo them (how, I do not know!)

Thanks!!!

 

[massimofinance]

I thought that i would post pictures of the switches before I removed the existing (working) ones as well. Thanks.

 

[alldodge]

Holly crud batman, that is some strange wiring. The switch in the first pic is a 4 way. From it having 2 reds tied to one of the 4 ways in the other pic, I think it is splitting power to two different lighting circuits, or there using 12-3 w/ground to supply 2 AC inputs.

Need to find where the 12-2 w/G (white/black/ground) wire comes in or verify that the breaker panel has connections of Red wires connected to breakers

 

[massimofinance]

Thanks AllDodge! Question, Ive read that that the red wires have two terminals, an in and an out- perhaps I switched those around? Maybe first stop is to switch those to see if the switches work? The terminals on the other side can be mounted either way I believe? Thx..

 

[alldodge]

The red is normally the travelers, so switching them from top to bottom on the same side should have no effect. The reds do need to be on one side of a 3 or 4 way switch.

Your pics while they help it shows your missing wires off the switches. This one shows me the switch on the right is a 3-way and appears to be wired correctly. The white wire should go to the light unless there is a 4 way also being used

The center only has one wire on it and cannot tell how many is on the left

This appears to be the same house location but only showing 2 switches and the left does not have but one wire one it

 

[massimofinance]

Thanks again all Dodge. I marked up the attached picture to make it clear that the right switch is the old switch and the middle white switch is the new one. What I did was take the black wire off the old switch and put it onto the new switch and then I snapped the picture. I pointed to the terminal where the Black wire was connected on the old switch. Should I try to put the red wires on the other side and the black and white wire on the side where the red wires are connected? Maybe I reversed sides?

 

[massimofinance]

See marked up picture. Thx.

 

[bigdee]

It appears that electrician did not follow normal convention of color code. That 4 way should have all red and black wires. ( or in some cases 2 reds and 2 whites) It looks like he used black & white 2 conductor romex as travellers to one of the 3 way switches. Find the other 3 way switches that control this light and post a picture of them. I have seen this done before on 4 way tracers....not against code but confusing for anyone to follow-up on.

 

[massimofinance]

Thanks BigDee! I will pull off those other switches when I can turn off the power (everyone home today, therefore I cant kill the power). I noticed an interesting thing, however. the 4-way switch I took a picture of is at the top of the stairs. I also have two three way switches- one outside the master and one at the bottom of the stairs. If the switch outside the master is turned on, both the other switches work the light; if the master switch is off, then no light. Does that mean anything?

 

[bigdee]

Thanks BigDee! I will pull off those other switches when I can turn off the power (everyone home today, therefore I cant kill the power). I noticed an interesting thing, however. the 4-way switch I took a picture of is at the top of the stairs. I also have two three way switches- one outside the master and one at the bottom of the stairs. If the switch outside the master is turned on, both the other switches work the light; if the master switch is off, then no light. Does that mean anything?

was it operating like that before you replaced the switches? If so, had it always?

"if the switch outside the master is turned on, both the other switches work the light; if the master switch is off, then no light. Does that mean anything?"

Yes, either wired wrong or THAT switch is bad and not switching power to other traveler.

 

[alldodge]

If your saying the black wire goes to the last terminal shown on new switch then this doesn't look right. You would not tie a white and a black to a 4 way or a 3 way, the white is not connected to a switch

the 4-way switch I took a picture of is at the top of the stairs. I also have two three way switches- one outside the master and one at the bottom of the stairs. If the switch outside the master is turned on, both the other switches work the light; if the master switch is off, then no light

You can place as many 4 ways between 3 ways and it will have no effect of lighting. Now if a 3 way is in place where a 4 way should be or a 4 way where a 3 way should be this can cause the issue. I would guess right now a 4 way was installed where a 3 way should have been, possibility

 

[bigdee]

If your saying the black wire goes to the last terminal shown on new switch then this doesn't look right. You would not tie a white and a black to a 4 way or a 3 way, the white is not connected to a switch

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You can place as many 4 ways between 3 ways and it will have no effect of lighting. Now if a 3 way is in place where a 4 way should be or a 4 way where a 3 way should be this can cause the issue. I would guess right now a 4 way was installed where a 3 way should have been, possibility

My guess; 3-way at master, 4-way at top of stairs, 3-way at bottom of stairs. Will know when he removes master.

 

[211libwtfo]

Long time electrician here. What you folks don’t know is if they are switching the neutral. Your going to have to get a meter and probably pull the fixtures turn the power off and do continuity test to figure out what you got. Some one hear says if you can’t fix it with a hammer you have an electrical problem.....

 

[211libwtfo]

And jus because it’s a white and black doesn’t mean crap. Do you know what a suicide switch is or a California switch. Electricity is like karate. Most people know just enough to get there ass hurt!!!

 

[211libwtfo]

If I had a nickel for every time I was called out to fix this exact issue and when the guy gets a $500 bill just to change switches out makes ya think about how cheap an electrician is.

 

[bigdee]

I think I see your problem. Old 4 way terminals are configured as top terminals are one pair and bottom terminals are the other pair. New switch is paired on each side instead of top and bottom. Take the bottom red and white wires and put them on left side of switch with red on bottom and white on top. Now put the other red on right top and black on bottom right.

 

[211libwtfo]

A continuity test will tell you how your switch operates. That shouldn’t be why other rooms aren’t working though

 

[Scott Danforth]

the leviton decora switches are laid out different from the old toggle switches. you cant simply move wires over, like 211libwtfo said, you have to understand how the switch operates....... it also helps to understand NFPA-70 (National Electric Code)

www.leviton.com/en/docs/Q-317A+Low+Voltage+Switches+NPB.pdf