How not to wire a boat!

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Aren't mechanical crimps a problem with tinned wire? Cold flow of the tinning affects the mechanical integrity of the crimp over time. At least that's my experience. Any compression of solder or tinning will cold flow the material over time and the crimp loosens.
It might be true but I don't really care at this point. I crimp and then heatshrink all the connections.
 

OBJ

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Quote by Realgun:<br /><br />
So is the wires ok or not? Ir eally does not matter they went into the trash already. As a matter of fact al the wiring in the boat except from the engin to the switch are being replaced.<br />Every connection is crimped then sealed with heat shrink. no solder here. But at least I took the time to find tinned wire. That stuff is hard to find here had to order most of it. <br /><br />I though that it was really strage to see the main negative wire used as a bus. Oh well at least I know everthing will work when I am done.<br />Better than can be said before.<br />
You go dude! Need any help, just hollar.
 

John McFarlane

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Rastro raises an interesting and much overlooked point. <br />I was also under the impression tinned wire is designed for soldering and not crimping. Also designed for above average environmental exposure, eg machine shops, marine, corrosive environments etc.<br /><br />Sometimes you cannot win.........
 

Freezebear

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

I trust a soldered joint if it's done correctly. Should only be done with rosin core silver bearing solder. Acid core will eat your wire. I also use crimp connectors, but sparingly. When i do use a crimp connector, I always seal it with 2 coats of Liquid Electrical tape. I never use wire nuts or quick connects. Water is very good about getting inside of exposed terminations in wire and creeping up the wire for some distance.<br />As far as the boats main wiring, I think it should have a dedicated hot and ground lead run to the battery and fused through the Positive terminal there. All accesories should be run off the main positive bus with smaller branch fuses.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

I think the tinning issue applies more to hand tinned wires where you have a relatively thick coating of it that is not evenly spread throughout each strand. Hand tinned stranded wire causes the strands to stick together and become more like a solid conductor. <br /><br />Boat cable, like Ancor's, tin each strand individually in a very thin and even coating so it does not affect flexibility. The barrels of the connectors made by Ancor are also tinned. Since they recommend crimped terminals on their cable you have to assume it's not an issue.
 

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

OBJ thanks for the offer.<br />Should I post a question here or there?<br />Will do me another post then :)
 

crab bait

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

get real..to get the GOOD crimp,, is anyone goin' to spend the high dollar for the GOOD crimper..?? <br /><br />tinned wire..<br /><br />hand crimped un-insulated terminal end or crimp sleeve/barrell..<br /><br />with a decent 'tool box' crimper..<br /><br />then soldered correctly ( an it's not brain surgery )..<br /><br />is the best connection in the world..<br /><br />( tape/heatshrink/cold dip/whatever.. doesn't matter/doesn't care .. cause the connection is now permently solder sealed )
 

Moody Blue

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Realgun, you've really opened a can of worms :eek: No doubt there is a "right" way to do this but I can guarantee you that most mfrs don't all do it the same way either. As long as you are careful at however you decide to go about this I'm sure it will last for many years. Get'er done and start enjoying that boat you have put so much time into.
 

tommays

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

IF you look realy close one of the BLACK "lashed and soldered wires" one sure looks SOLID WIRE TO ME <br /><br />tommays
 

OBJ

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

WOW! Crimp/solder is getting hotter than which oil is the best...... :D :D <br /><br />Anyone looked at a new boat lately....under the dash? Terminations are crimp ons. Don't know how it is for ocean going boats or the larger cruisers but on bass rigs and just fishing boats I havn't seen a bit of solder yet. And the crimp connectors are the 10 for $.59 cent varitity.<br /><br />I think if a guy wants to take the time and do a crimp and solder, fine. If he wants to go the extra mile, fine. But when you get down to basics, it's all in the planning. A well laid out electrical plan will last for years and will be easily serviced. Cover terminations in liquid tape or vinyl. If you want to solder, fine....if not, just make sure the crimps are good and covered with shrink or vinyl. Keep the moisture out.
 

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

get real..to get the GOOD crimp,, is anyone goin' to spend the high dollar for the GOOD crimper..??
Yes I did I looked for a few days and stumbled one 1 that was exactly like the Ancor except no fancy engraving for 1/3 the price. <br />
<br />tinned wire..<br />
Yes I found another place that has the tinned wire fairly inexpensively.<br />
<br />hand crimped un-insulated terminal end or crimp sleeve/barrell..<br />
No I got the insulated and have the crimp jaw that does uninsulated too.<br /><br />
<br />with a decent 'tool box' crimper..<br />
Nope got a good 1 as stated above.<br />
<br />then soldered correctly ( an it's not brain surgery )..<br />
Not needed by the regulations so therfore not used >.<br /><br />
is the best connection in the world..<br />
No its very good but it is possible that it could mess up a good crimp which in fact is a requirement of the ABYC.<br /><br />Sorry to rain on your parade but I hate solsdering but crimping is quick and fun. :)
 

demsvmejm

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Originally posted by Realgun:<br />
Aren't mechanical crimps a problem with tinned wire? Cold flow of the tinning affects the mechanical integrity of the crimp over time. At least that's my experience. Any compression of solder or tinning will cold flow the material over time and the crimp loosens.
It might be true but I don't really care at this point. I crimp and then heatshrink all the connections.
That is your sole concern, at this point in time, your opinion is supported and that's all that matters, whether correct or not. Just as your signature says, you take all the information and disregard any that does not agree with your favored conclusion. This whole crimp v solder debate gets no one anywhere. Those of you who support crimping seem to refuse to accept that it is not necessarily the better way, that soldering is a more secure, corrosion resistant manner of making a connection. There is a trade-off. Crimping can be done by idiots whereas soldering needs skill. You can argue all day long about "properly" made connections, but your fishfinder, GPS, electric trolling motor, and instruments will not have crimped connections internally where the connection integrity really counts. And they are subjected to the same vibrations as all of the rest of the boat. The assertions of the solder crystallizing amazes me. The solder joints in all mobile electronics don’t systematically fail due crystallization. <br /><br />And the assertion of a boat being subjected to greater vibration is a total fallacy. Greater impact perhaps, but not greater vibration, at least not here in Michigan with our roads.
 

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Crimping can be done by idiots whereas soldering needs skill.
Really? I have the skill but no smarts. <br /><br />Guess I will just have to suffer with crimping. :D
 

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

This is getting outa hand. I believe that the wiring job in my boad was done inproperly and wanted to share it. In FACT it was done wrong why?<br />Because nothing worked a second time! All that wire wrapping and soldering did not work worth a hoot. <br /><br />So far I have rewired the switch and dash. Guess what? It all works.Plus I can tell you what wire goes to what circuit cause it has the proper colors.<br /><br /> Now on to the 5 switches.
 

OBJ

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

You GO Dude......offer is still open....I work cheap....just a longneck or 24 and we're good to go!
 

John McFarlane

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Go for it Reajgun. <br /><br />Now when you've finished the job and am satisfied you have done it properly, you won't have to touch it for about, say, 10 years. By then all the wiring codes, colours, regulations, legislation, ideas and theories will have changed and your boat will be categorised as a death trap because we all got it wrong in 2005.<br /><br />Soldering and crimping were both wrong, tinned wire is a health hazard (as is copper wire) and causes cancer when used in marine applications, the plastic on a crimp contributes to global warming and genetic birth defects, while all petrol supplies have dried up due to grossly inefficient useage and wastage and all 'marine conveyances of recreational purposes' are powered by tiny fusion reactors. (because nuclear power has been found to actually be the lesser of all other evils). <br /><br />No wiring is required at all because the 'marine recreational device operates in the 7th dimension and electrical conductivity by physical means is obsolete.<br /><br />The sea and all inland recreational water bodies are so polluted as to be extreme health hazards and no one will insure a device that needs to travel close to the muck now loosely categorised as water.<br /><br />So the purpose of this thread was actually to give us space cowboys a bit of a giggle.<br /><br />Hope the boat gives you many years of trouble free (electrically anyway) pleasure.
 

demsvmejm

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Originally posted by John McFarlane:<br /> Go for it Reajgun. <br /><br />Now when you've finished the job and am satisfied you have done it properly, you won't have to touch it for about, say, 10 years. By then all the wiring codes, colours, regulations, legislation, ideas and theories will have changed and your boat will be categorised as a death trap because we all got it wrong in 2005.<br />
Very cynical John. (Probably) True, but cycnical. And I agree. Seems silly to continue our arguments, huh?<br /><br /><br />
Originally posted by Realgun:<br /> This is getting outa hand. I believe that the wiring job in my boad was done inproperly and wanted to share it. In FACT it was done wrong why?<br />Because nothing worked a second time! All that wire wrapping and soldering did not work worth a hoot.
You are overlooking one critical point of your argument. The soldering in and of itself IS NOT the cause of the failure. You are insinuating that the soldering causes the failures, and that there is no other possible cause. You can't assert this until you cut out all of the solder joints and replace them with crimp terminals. Then, only then and only if all functions work properly, can you say the solder joints were at fault. And at that point you could not assert that the properly soldered joints contributed to the failures. But, and this is an important but, if you did this and all functions worked, I would concede that the soldering was contributory to your failures. <br />However, since you removed all the wiring and reinstalled your own, you can't prove definitively that all of the solder joints were faulty, or for that matter that any were faulty.<br /><br />I respect that you did rewire the entire system yourself. And that you sourced appropriate materials. I am not anti-crimp I'm just anti-corrosion. And I take exception to the ill-informed banter going on stating that soldering is bad. <br /><br />Good luck with your boat. I'm sure it will give you many years of pleasure.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Automobiles are somewhat isolated from vibration by their suspension systems. Boats have no suspension systems. Can't you feel the vibration when you're on you boat in bare feet? I sure can. <br /><br />True circuit boards are mainly soldered however in harsh environments the boards are generally required to have plated through holes, have lead bend requirements, are soldered in a very controlled environment by a wave soldering machine and are conformal coated. The boards themselves are usually mechanically connected to a backplane and/or interconnected by cables with pins that are crimped on.<br /><br />Take a look at this:<br /> http://workmanship.nasa.gov/wkstds_nasa.jsp <br /><br />Note how the crimping spec is included with "cables, harnesses and wiring" while the solder specs generally concern themselves with circuit boards and terminals. <br /><br />Take a tour of your local A&D manufacturer and it will put to rest any doubts about what is the norm in harsh environments. Then solder up some connections, solder and crimp some others and just solder a few and ask for a couple of hours on their shake table to run some tests.<br /><br />Soldering is not bad per se. It just has to be done properly to be reliable in harsh environments. You can't go near a soldering iron in a A&D production environment unless you are trained and have passed all the certification testing. <br /><br />Solder is very soft and breaks easily when pulled off your roll. So then it stands to reason it doesn't get any harder just because you melted it onto some copper. If it is not coupled with a good mechanical connection you may develop a problem over time as the connection is mechanically stressed.<br /><br />Crimping is not bad per se, it just has to be done right to be reliable in harsh environments. Of the two methods, crimping is easiest and requires the least amount of skill to accomplish. <br /><br />So then, when giving advice to relative novice DIYers what method should be recommended the "easy" method used by OEMs and recommended by most "experts" in the area or some other method that requires skill and experience to accomplish properly?
 

crab bait

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

this is the end ,, with meon this topic..<br /><br />all i'm sayin' is that a properly crimped termination with the high dollar crimper is great..<br /><br />but it still a mechanical bond.. an corrodsion can still get in an take hold.. especially in a salt marine envorment..<br /><br />the average joeboater,, hardly has a regular toolbox/tool pouch crimper.. <br /><br />crimp only,, askin' for trouble..will corrode... add solder,, corrodison free forever..<br /><br />if'n by chance it crystalizes/breaks/fails/whatever/not likely,,it's still crimped..
 

Realgun

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Re: How not to wire a boat!

Carb thats probably why the tinned wire was so hard to get here as we are a minimum of 1200 miles from salt water and actually 40 from fresh. :) People still look and me funny and shake thier heads either its me or the boat not sure but I don't really care. :D <br /><br />I understand about soldering but I decided it was to much work. :) And I was trained to solder I didn't like it much. I would rather squeeze the heck out if then burn it. :)
 
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