How should I handle this situation?

[jayhanig]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Like, connect the two posts of a solenoid together (while the key is turned on?) should make it turn over?

If that does not work, and battery cables to the starter makes the starter turn over, that means the solenoid (or ignition switch or switch wiring) is bad?

Please explain in tiny words. I know enough not to jump electrical connections that I don't understand. I don't want to make expensive bits go poof!

The solenoid exists only so you don't have to run a large amount of current directly through your switch (with your fingers clutching the key). When it is activated with enough voltage, it should engage the Bendix on the starter and your engine should crank. "Click, click, click" in rapid succession is often indicative of a battery that's gone flat (either temporarily because you let it get run down or more permanently because it has a bad cell).

A solenoid that clicks once and then nothing.... but then may engage normally is probably failing. You can bypass your key circuit by turning your key to "on" and then shorting the solenoid across its two posts with an insulated screwdriver. There may well be a pretty good spark so make sure your engine compartment is well ventilated. If you can't get the solenoid to energize with the key but you can with a screwdriver, replace the solenoid. If you're lucky the solenoid isn't part of your starter. If you're unlucky, it is.

 

[jdlough]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Ahhh! Ok, I get it.

Thanks, Jay!

 

[Steve91T]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Wow, thanks guys for the great help. I don't have much time, so I'll keep this quick.

What made me think it's the solenoid is I have a lawnmower that does the exact same thing. I have to keep clicking the starter until it finally cranks. I often have to turn the key on and then jump it with a screwdriver. Bad solenoid.

Last year I told the mechanic what's happening and he agreed with me that it's probably a bad solenoid. The engine is a 95 Merc 350 EFI. I'm pretty sure the solenoid and starter are all one unit, hence the reason it had to be pulled and rebuilt. When a starter/alternator shop rebuilds starters, they also do the solenoid, right? If it's all one unit, I would think they'd have to.

I will check everything out tomorrow as you guys have suggested, but I will say this, the battery is less than one year old, and the alternator was load tested less than a year ago. I know things can happen over the course of a winter, but right now the engine cranks faster and stronger than it ever has. Probably because the starter was rebuilt. Also, I was poking around the engine compartment the other day and all of the wires for the battery and starter look good. No obvious signs of corrosion. I understand that doesn't mean a whole lot though.

So, let's say I confirm it's the solenoid tomorrow morning, what do I do then? Pull the starter and have it rebuilt again? When a solenoid is part of the starter, is it something that once they open it up, they just remove and replace? Or is it more complicated than that? Is it possible they "rebuilt" the starter but didn't touch the solenoid?

Thanks again guys for the help.
Steve

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

anyway you could take a picture of the starter and post it? I'd be happy to help more but pretty much the blind leading the blind here as I am not overly familiar with inboard/outboard motors. Cables do often corrode from the inside out. The easiest way to tell is just to trace the cables. I don't know that a solenoid can be rebuilt that would be someone here with a little more knowledge than myself but starter solenoids (independent of the starter) are usually cheap less than $30.

I would try bypassing the solenoid first to see what happens, if the starter spins freely and just like it should then test the solenoid (or just replace it) if it is independent.

I would at least go through and clean all the ground connections and would start tracing electrical drops as well.

An el cheapo voltmeter from harbor freight $10 is a worthwhile investment.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

anyway you could take a picture of the starter and post it? I'd be happy to help more but pretty much the blind leading the blind here as I am not overly familiar with inboard/outboard motors. Cables do often corrode from the inside out. The easiest way to tell is just to trace the cables.

I'll get one tomorrow morning.

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

actually from researching online it appears as if the starter for your mercruiser actually does have the solenoid built on to it, you can jump it by using the insulated screwdriver to lay across the two smaller post on the solenoid. It is going to spark like mad though and make sure you use an INSULATED screwdriver if you don't it will be painful. ALSO Make sure your engine compartment is VENTED.

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Solenoids come in two flavors.

The most common is a seperate solenoid that is strictly electrical.
It may be mounted on the starter or it may be mounted seperate.
You will see a battery wire to the solenoid and another from the solenoid to the starter.
Jumping the solenoid posts will bypass the solenoid.
In normal operation the solenoid closes, giving power to the starter.
The started starts to rotate.
The rotating bendix gear then extends onto the flywheel by the helix action of the starter shaft.
This is the method where you sometimes hear the starter gear grinding against the flywheel when the gears mis-engage.


The other method is more mechanical.
The solenoid is internal to the starter.
You will only see a singe battery wire to the starter.
The solenoid mechanically pushes the bendix gear onto the flywheel.
Just as the bendix becomes fully engaged, the solenoid's electrical contacts supplies power to the starter.
In normal operation, the starter begins rotating only After the bendix is fully engaged on the flywheel.
If the bendix does not fully engage, or the contacts are bad, the solenoid will "Click" but he starter may not rotate.
The shaft of the solenoid is sometimes visible on the outside of the starter and pushing it in allows manual operation of the solenoid.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Got ahold of the mechanic today. He told me that there are actually two solenoids, one built into the starter and a slave that sits inside the electronic box on top of the engine. He said he tested it but it worked perfectly. Since it's only a $20 part and Napa will have it here in two hours, I'm just going to replace it and see what happens.

BTW, super nice guy. He felt really bad that I'm still having problems. He said that the starter shop he uses is very good and they have been using them for a long time. He was actually going to drive 3 hours all the way down here with a new solenoid to replace it for me, but I told him that's not necessary. It's definitely something I can handle

It is nice to be dealing with a mechanic who actually cares. Boating this weekend, I'll let you guys know how it does.

 

[Don S]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Read this thread, testing is quick and easy before throwing parts at it.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167035

 

[Struc]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Don't discount the fact that *sometimes* cables can corrode inside the insulation, where you can't even see it. If there are ANY buldges in either battery cable anywhere along the line, replace it.

 

[Steve91T]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Am I the only one that's going to ask what sort of engine / year is being discussed? Yeah, it makes a difference. (Can you say slave solenoid?)

On my post #23 on the first page i said it was a 95 Merc 5.7 EFI, but it was kind of burried.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

what about the measurements that UncleWillie requested in post #6?

troubleshooting does not mean spending money on just replacing parts.

case in point. neighbor at the lake pulled his pontoon out of storage, installed brand new battery. hooked it up and it went click click click. he spent 3 hours pulling stuff apart (cowling, starter, etc.). after the third or fourth multi-hyphenated 4 and 5 letter screams I walked over with my multi meter and found the bad connection in under 2 mintues. I then helped him put his motor back together and drank a few of his "beverages"

 

[jdlough]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Check out Don's excellent link above. Print it out. Get a check light. Keep both on the boat.

Really excellent info.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167035


BTW, to Steve (the OP) please come up with better titles for your posts, with good key words so future searchers can find it. For this, something like "Click when attempting starting. Solenoid? Starter? Connection?"

 

[Steve91T]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Check out Don's excellent link above. Print it out. Get a check light. Keep both on the boat.

Really excellent info.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167035


BTW, to Steve (the OP) please come up with better titles for your posts, with good key words so future searchers can find it. For this, something like "Click when attempting starting. Solenoid? Starter? Connection?"

I always title my posts accordingly. I had no idea my question of how to handle the marina would turn into this and get moved to the electronics forum.

Lot's of good information and I'm glad it did, but that wasn't my original question.

 

[jdlough]

Re: How should I handle this situation?

Yo Steve,

Sorry if that sounded harsh. I did not mean that. You can never quite tell if a thread is going to turn out to be a good one, and this definitely is. Sometimes things get edited and shuffled around beyond your control. Yep, I understand that.

I'm gonna bookmark it just for the solenoid explanation.

And yep, it got moved to some subsection of a subsection, but future searchers may only search by title. I had a hard time re-finding it when I just read it two days ago.

Short, concise titles with good key words really help searchers.

Thanks again for an excellent question. I learned something new from this thread, and taught two other guys! Seriously.

Jim