How to get better MPG when towing???

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Well for what's it's worth here are two websites I have seen that sell directions/plans on how to build them. The plans are like 50 bucks and they claim the parts can be bought for around a hundred. Thanks for your responses and let me know if anyone know of someone who has one of these installed.

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com

http://hho-hybrid.com/

Thanks

For what its worth, you don't get something for nothing. The amount of energy it takes to break away the hydrogen atoms from water are equal to the energy the hydrogen gas will provide for its reaction to be converted back into water.

Even if you have a hydrogen powered vehicle, it wouldn't have enough power to tow a boat and that is what this forum is all about...towing boats.

 

[bomar76]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

1. Only tow down hill
2. Drive naked
3. Keep tow vehicle waxed
4. Do not use Air Conditioner and drive with windows UP
5. Do not use lights
6. Do not turn, travel in straight lines only
7. Shave off all body hair
8. Tow boat w/o any fuel or accessories, buy them at ramp
9. Inflate tires to 100 psi
10. Tow only down wind
11. Never haul passengers when towing
12. Find new hobby

 

[TimBobCom]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

E85: I have to agree with Silvertip on the E85 argument (thus continuing the thread hijack.) In my 07 Avalanche (with the FlexFuel approved engine) I see a reduction in MPG of ~17% from 15.8 to 13.2. This is over a 3 month period with each fuel on my normal route of approximately 50 miles of what the EPA would consider City driving. E85 tends to be about 20% cheaper than 87 octane in St. Louis, so in about 100 years I will have saved enough pennies to make a difference.

 

[dave11]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

To answer the original posters question, there is a company in belleville michigan that produces a hydrogen generator that supposedly produces a 60% gain in fuel economy. I thinks its called the Hydro 4000 or something like that. Its costs around $1200. I'm skeptical but there is a new story on it where they do chassis dyno tests. I'm hopefully going to get some time and contact the owner ( They're only about 15 miles from me) and sit down and have a talk with him about the product.


Chris

Chris

Let us know if you get to test that thing. I would be interested in the results.

 

[eli_lilly]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

To answer the original posters question, there is a company in belleville michigan that produces a hydrogen generator that supposedly produces a 60% gain in fuel economy. I thinks its called the Hydro 4000 or something like that. Its costs around $1200. I'm skeptical but there is a new story on it where they do chassis dyno tests. I'm hopefully going to get some time and contact the owner ( They're only about 15 miles from me) and sit down and have a talk with him about the product.

Our local news, WPTV, had the Hydro 4000 unit installed on one of their news trucks. They ran it on a dyno for an hour to gather base information. Then they installed the unit and ran it again. They also drove it around for a week, to compare actual fuel consumption versus historical. The gas mileage went from 9.4 to 23.2 MPG. There were some questions raised by a local professor, after the segment aired, concerning the low initial dyno-ed MPG when compared to the book MPG. WPTV is going to re-run the test using two vehicles. The story is at http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

-E

 

[KM2]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

bruce your physics are correct. The BTU's of E85 is less and you would be right if the engine was 100% efficient. My expience on numerous tanks of gas and e85 was 15-20% mpg decrease. E85 was 3.08, 87 gas was 3.83 today.

E85 is 105 octance and the timing is adjusted by the cars computer to take advantage of the octane and not experience a full 34% decrease in mpg's.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

I agree that increasing the spark advance will improve the efficiency. You can only go so far though and the only real way to take advantage and get increase efficiency by using e85 is to have increased compression.

After this post started I have been looking at some studies on E85. The society of automotive engineers have a study to increase the engine efficiency of E85. It entails massive spark advance like you mentioned along with a large increase in compression and a change in transmission shift points and gearing to be as efficient as possible with the higher compression engine and alcohol...the engine needs to be running at a lower RPM with more of a load on it. With all the changes, the SAE believes that it may be possible to get within 15% of a regular gasoline. This of course is not going to happen with a flex vehicle which has to operate with both fuels as well as a mixture of each type.

 

[KM2]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Bruce

Is that study comparing the same size engine to get within 15%. The high compression E85 engine would have much more power. I'm think you could down size 25% the e85 high compression engine and have the same power and mpg's.


If I had lots of money I would build a high compression e85 only engine just to try it. Turbo or supercharging would be nice too
Lot's of e85 pumps around me.

Can you explain why us FFV drivers are only experiencing half the fuel economy loss than what you suggest we must experience?

I kept a mpg log for 2 months (3k+ miles) using E85 and unleaded to figure out what my fuel economy was.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Can you explain why us FFV drivers are only experiencing half the fuel economy loss than what you suggest we must experience?

Only explanation would be that the fuel is not 85% alcohol and they are selling it with a higher percentage of gasoline in it.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...ethanol-10-06/overview/1006_ethanol_ov1_1.htm

 

[aborgman]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

For what its worth, you don't get something for nothing. The amount of energy it takes to break away the hydrogen atoms from water are equal to the energy the hydrogen gas will provide for its reaction to be converted back into water.

No, the laws of thermodynamics demand that it takes MORE energy to break away the hydrogen atoms from water than the hydrogen gas will provide.

100% efficiency is completely unachievable. Physically impossible.

Even if you have a hydrogen powered vehicle, it wouldn't have enough power to tow a boat and that is what this forum is all about...towing boats.

Ummm... a fully hydrogen powered vehicle could be made just as powerful as you like, in exactly the same way you make any other internal combustion engine more powerful.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

100% efficiency is completely unachievable. Physically impossible.

I agree...which makes the argument for one of these HHO machines to be reasonable even less plausible.

Ummm... a fully hydrogen powered vehicle could be made just as powerful as you like, in exactly the same way you make any other internal combustion engine more powerful.

Since the energy produced for a given volume of hydrogen is so much less than equal volumes of other fuels, the size of both the storage and the engine itself would be too massive for a vehicle towing a boat.

 

[CATransplant]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Just to lighten things up:

My father, now 83 years old, had an auto repair shop for many, many years. As is typical in one-man shops, a group of guys used to drop by for coffee every morning and chew the fat.

The topic, of course, often had to do with cars. One guy was always bragging about the gas mileage he got. Keep in mind that this was in the 1950s, when gas was about 20 cents per gallon. Well, this guy's story was always a bit exaggerated. So, my dad got an idea...

He'd slip out while the guy was there and add a couple of gallons of gas to the guy's tank. Not every time, but sometimes. Pretty soon, the guy was bragging even louder about the terrific gas mileage he was getting. So, my dad started adding a little more at a time. Before long, the guy was getting just amazing gas mileage. Everyone was in on the prank, except the guy.

Finally, he came in one day and swore that his car was now making gas. He went on and on about it, how his fuel guage read higher each day, even though he'd been driving as usual. Finally my dad fessed up, and they laughed about that for years.

So, the answer to getting better mileage while towing seems to be to hang out at the local garage and brag about your gas mileage.

 

[External Combustion]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Continuing the hijack. I spent many hours at the dyno for a university with government grants to fund the nonsense. It was shortly after the '73 embargo and the feds were thowing money into looking for an answer that has never materialized.

The reason that an E85 engine does not have such a decrease in mileage (in reality brake specific fuel consumption) is that the water derived by burning the ethanol not only increases the apparent octane rating but the steam generated also increases the mean efective pressure. This was known before WWII and many aircraft of that day had water injection to boost the HP for a few minutes.

OK why don't we use it today? I have put it on several of my vehicle engines and it does increase the bsfc during the water injection. The great downside is that the water tank freezes during the winter. Few users are willing or capable of putting enough alcohol in the water tank to keep it from freezing.

Back to E85. No water tank needed, no alcohol to add, unfortunately no variable timing, compression or jetting (pump stroke for you injector types)

Nope, no free lunch.

The best way to evaluate any new "revolutionary" product is to watch the marketplace. If the technology delivers, everyone will be all over it in a few months. The vehicle manufactures are wanting to ace everyone else out of a job. If they can do that with increased technology, you can bet they will do so. Have you bought a new carbed car lately? No? That is because for the average driver injection technology give better mileage and starting.

Keep watching and evaluating. Someone somewhere might unlease a real genie for vehicle use.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

EC,

Just as you signature says that internal combustion is a passing fad, so is E85. It is just a group grope between politicians, farmers and automakers. The politicians look like they are doing something for the environment while the farmers make out by growing more corn and the automakers were able to use the E85 as a way to increase their allotments of lower mileage vehicles. Once E85 is no longer subsidized and the true cost of producing ethanol in this country, at least with the method we do it now, is realized and passed onto the consumer, nobody will be using it.

 

[dimock44]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Our local news, WPTV, had the Hydro 4000 unit installed on one of their news trucks. They ran it on a dyno for an hour to gather base information. Then they installed the unit and ran it again. They also drove it around for a week, to compare actual fuel consumption versus historical. The gas mileage went from 9.4 to 23.2 MPG. There were some questions raised by a local professor, after the segment aired, concerning the low initial dyno-ed MPG when compared to the book MPG. WPTV is going to re-run the test using two vehicles. The story is at http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

-E

Eli
I hope you repost this when they do the retest on your local station.

 

[aborgman]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

I agree...which makes the argument for one of these HHO machines to be reasonable even less plausible.

They are completely implausible - in the same vein as perpetual motion machines.

Since the energy produced for a given volume of hydrogen is so much less than equal volumes of other fuels, the size of both the storage and the engine itself would be too massive for a vehicle towing a boat.

Not at all - you compress the hydrogen (or bind it in a metal matrix of some sort), and you're golden.

BMW already makes a 200+ HP hydrogen powered sedan, and Ford has tested a 6000lb, 770 HP, car at Bonneville Salt flats which broke 200 MPH.

--
Aaron

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Not at all - you compress the hydrogen (or bind it in a metal matrix of some sort), and you're golden.Aaron

The best you can do is to compress it into a liquid. Can't get more compressed than that. Of course you would never be able to get it into a liquid unless it is massively cooled(-427 degree fahrenheit).

It still will be a massive volume in comparison to a tank of gasoline if you compare energy of each.

The energy content of liquid hydrogen to gasoline is a 4 to 1 ratio. Since you can't feasibly get hydrogen into a liquid without massive cooling, it is an even worse scenario.

 

[aborgman]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

The best you can do is to compress it into a liquid.

...and that is exactly how BMW does it with the Hydrogen 7. A tank with 8 kilos of liquid hydrogen - gives it a range of 120 miles on hydrogen, then it switched to its gasoline tank.

Can't get more compressed than that. Of course you would never be able to get it into a liquid unless it is massively cooled(-427 degree fahrenheit).

PV=nRT my friend. All you need is a LOT of pressure. Or really good insulation - remember, you don't need to turn it into a liquid, just keep it a liquid.

It still will be a massive volume in comparison to a tank of gasoline if you compare energy of each.

For a similar energy content it certainly will be - You're looking at almost a factor of two in volumetric energy density. I'm not sure that is massive, but certainly significant.

The energy content of liquid hydrogen to gasoline is a 4 to 1 ratio. Since you can't feasibly get hydrogen into a liquid without massive cooling, it is an even worse scenario.

Lets not forget fuel cells here either - by binding hydrogen molecules in various ways with metal hydrides and other interesting things the volumetric energy density can be greatly increased.

Not that I think hydrogen is a likely fuel of the future - just that it certainly is capable of powering a vehicle which could tow a boat.

--
Aaron

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

To see how ridiculous the BMW car is:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448648,00.html

"BMW's thermo-tank, specially designed to hold liquid hydrogen as well as regular gasoline, has the same diameter as the drum of a washing machine. It has a volume of 170 liters (45 gallons) and takes up half the trunk. But it can only hold eight kilograms (17.6 lbs) of the extremely light hydrogen fuel -- barely enough for a 200 kilometer (124 mile) trip. What's more, some of the tank's contents have to be released as they heat up and evaporate -- even the best insulation system can't keep temperatures down forever. After nine days, half the tank load has gone bad."

 

[bruceb58]

Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

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