Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

Huron Angler

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Thad

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I think that is utterly rediculous! I don't have a problem with (insert activist here) wanting to restore or preserve public lands for what ever reason. But when they have the power to get get "laws" passed that tell me,:eek: the property owner, what I can and can't do to MY property, well, NOW I HAVE A PROBLEM!:mad:
I, personally, would much rather look at a nice beach area and boat dock than a buch of weeds. Yes, I said weeds. By definition, any vegetation that is unwanted. And he did not want them. That fine is stupid. And the whole "scientist making mud" is garbage. I guess the guy should have applied for a permit. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. I still feel bad for him though.
I would not think twice about having done it if it were my property.
 

salty87

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

sounds to me like he brought it upon himself and then ignored it until they slapped the big fine on him.

who knows how hard it is to get a permit but when you own waterfront land, you should be aware of things like that. a big project will also attract more attention....not too bright on his part, imo.
 

BigJ08

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

WOW that seems really harsh. Just about everyone here in Florida that lives on a lake has a cleared beach and I've never heard anything about permits to do it! In fact, I help to clear my uncles lakefront lot a couple times a year and we spray herbicide and everything. I even know people who have built there own boat ramps on their property and I have put my boat in on a beach many times. Sounds like they're trying to make an example out of somebody but that seems like a P*** poor thing to do, especially in this economy.
 

dobbs571

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I work for the county road dist In Missouri for a while we were filling in pot holes with red clay and pee gravel. We were getting off the county right of way beside the road we were working on will they came along and stopped us said are digging was making dirt run in to a stream about a mile on down the road when it rained. this was a high bank right beside the road we were using a backhoe to get the clay off the bank. Now this bank or bluff if you want to call it that was about 30 ft high and had been exposed for about 80 yrs. nothing growing on it. We had to make it look like it did before we started seed it and try to straw, and fertilizer to there specs ever try to get straw to stick on a 90* bluff 2 weeks later and 18,000 dollars of county money It rained and washed down in the stream and killed fish the fertilizer the give us was poison to fish omg real smart people
 

Navy Jr.

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I don't have much of an issue with the judgment of the state supreme court in NH. The law is the law, and it is the responsibility of waterfront property owners to understand it.

What gets me is how others nearby were doing the same thing and were not cited for it. To me it is an issue of fairness.

I'm curious though. I don't own waterfront property. Where does the owner's property end and the state-owned natural resource begin? Is it at water's edge? Is it a set number of feet before water's edge? Do the rules vary by state?
 

triumphrick

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I'm curious though. I don't own waterfront property. Where does the owner's property end and the state-owned natural resource begin? Is it at water's edge? Is it a set number of feet before water's edge? Do the rules vary by state? Navy Jr.

In Florida, the salt water property line is defined by the "mean high tide line"..which in itself is very ambiguous. It has at least kept property owners from fencing off the area along the beaches where people walk. Freshwater is different and you can own land submerged and out into lakes. I am not sure about rivers....
 

cheburashka

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I think that is utterly rediculous! I don't have a problem with (insert activist here) wanting to restore or preserve public lands for what ever reason. But when they have the power to get get "laws" passed that tell me,:eek: the property owner, what I can and can't do to MY property, well, NOW I HAVE A PROBLEM!:mad:

There are some awfully good rules about what you can't do on your property. You can't dump used oil into the topsoil for one. It gets into the groundwater. Same thing here. You build a two-lane highway into the water and stuff's going to end up in the water that shouldn't be there. The fine seems pretty steep, but I agree with Salty87. Sounds like he had plenty of opportunity to remedy the situation and he just didn't.
 

jonesg

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

Idealist whackjobs should be discouraged from taking those jobs, they can't handle authority.
 

Ripfence

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Apr 29, 2006
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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

There are some lakes which are private and others that aren't. If the lake is an Army Corps of Engineers impoundment then they own the lake and a portion of the peripheral property. They take their ownership pretty seriously and can impose some sever penalties.
 

Home Cookin'

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

Vegetated tidal edges are essential for the health of the waterway. the actions of the riparian (water's edge) owners affect all of the users of the water, who want clean clear water, fish, crabs, etc. So it's much more than his own land affected when he tore out the natural vegetation to have an unnatural beach. And wetlands mitigation is very expensive.
Responsible boaters will support programs and agencies that protect the wetlands and water quality, including Ducks Unlimited, Coastal Conservation, Nature Conservancy and Chesapeak Bay Foundation. If you enjoy the water you owe it to support their programs.
The permitting process is designed to permit the use of the edges without undue harm to them. For example, your dock must be 4' above the vegetation to permit sunlight to reach it. Good compromise.
You can't turn your front lawn in the suburbs into a pig farm. Anyone who thinks he can do whatever he wants with his land is deluded. And he would want someone controlling his neighbor's use, that's for sure. Indeed, the ones who holler about "no one tells me what to do with my land" is the first to complain about his neighbor's playing rap music or building a fence.
Riparian ownership varies by state, and it is a patchwork within the state. For example, in Virginia, you own to mean low water but others can use the land between mean high and mean low to transit. You do not own the subaquaes (bottom), the state does, but you can wharf out across it to navigable waters. There are a few grants of ownership of bottom land, and lots of leases. The unattached marshes on the Eastern Shore belong not to the state but to the "people in common." some lots are laid out with specific lines at the water--into it or not actually touching it; others are laid out with reference to the tide line and thus the lot can change with accretion and erosion.
Bottom line, though, is you need permits.
 

cheburashka

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Messages
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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

Vegetated tidal edges are essential for the health of the waterway. the actions of the riparian (water's edge) owners affect all of the users of the water, who want clean clear water, fish, crabs, etc. So it's much more than his own land affected when he tore out the natural vegetation to have an unnatural beach. And wetlands mitigation is very expensive.
Responsible boaters will support programs and agencies that protect the wetlands and water quality, including Ducks Unlimited, Coastal Conservation, Nature Conservancy and Chesapeak Bay Foundation. If you enjoy the water you owe it to support their programs.
The permitting process is designed to permit the use of the edges without undue harm to them. For example, your dock must be 4' above the vegetation to permit sunlight to reach it. Good compromise.
You can't turn your front lawn in the suburbs into a pig farm. Anyone who thinks he can do whatever he wants with his land is deluded. And he would want someone controlling his neighbor's use, that's for sure. Indeed, the ones who holler about "no one tells me what to do with my land" is the first to complain about his neighbor's playing rap music or building a fence.
Riparian ownership varies by state, and it is a patchwork within the state. For example, in Virginia, you own to mean low water but others can use the land between mean high and mean low to transit. You do not own the subaquaes (bottom), the state does, but you can wharf out across it to navigable waters. There are a few grants of ownership of bottom land, and lots of leases. The unattached marshes on the Eastern Shore belong not to the state but to the "people in common." some lots are laid out with specific lines at the water--into it or not actually touching it; others are laid out with reference to the tide line and thus the lot can change with accretion and erosion.
Bottom line, though, is you need permits.

There's always some joker who has to come along with facts and reasoning, and who spoils a perfectly good tantrum.
 

jonesg

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

No matter how well its reasoned out, $100,000 for pulling water weeds is just plain nuts. Lack of common sense comes to mind.

An eye for an eye rationale of justice is a limitation, not an invitation.

If he had been pouring PCB's in the water I could understand.
 

Iandayen

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Jul 12, 2009
Messages
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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

I agree he should have gotten permits.

But I also don't agree with the $100,000 fine.

He improved what was already there as far as the ramp goes. And with the vegetation, well, If you see that area, you would see just about everyone has done that with their property along that bank.

In order to be fair, I honestly think the DEP needs to go along that bank, find out who had permits to do what they did, and fine everyone who did not the same amount.

But seriously, having to hire scientists to make mud and then hire someone to grow the grass? If you let that bank be for a few more years (maybe toss some seed in there and bury it) it will not be noticeable at all that it had been cleared.

If I owned a property with a river going through it, and I was told I could do nothing to the river or it's banks, I would expect to not be taxed on that part of the property, or to have the state add value to my property because of that to put me in a higher tax bracket.

If I can't do something to a river or body of water, on my property, then I won't be the one who does the maintenance, and neither will i pay for it.

There are other issues that I have had personal experience with.

Back about 7 years ago, in Southern Oregon the environmentalists decided that some sucker fish in Klamath Lake was endangered and that the 2200+ agricultural farmers were endangering those fish by using the water from the lake to irrigate crops.

I was 24 at the time, and my parents owned a sizable chunk of property out there.

They passed the law that said none of the farmers could use the water from that lake to irrigate. They shut down the canals. There were some whackjobs who went psycho over it and sent fake bombs floating towards the canal gates in the lake and they ended up posting FBI agents there.

The real crap was that the government also charged people by the year to use the water to cover the costs of upkeeping the canals and whatnot.

After they stopped the water here is what happened.

They tried to charge for the water useage saying that the canals had to be kept up no matter what, and people refused to pay.

The lake rose so high that the sunlight couldn't get to the vegetation these sucker fish fed on and was killing them off at a very fast rate.

They finally said "okay, we are letting water into the canals, you can use it, but you have to first pay the water bill and a late fee if you haven't paid it already"

By this time it was already very late into the growing season, and the Farmers said no. It's too late, the water would do us no good.

They put hundreds of people into bankruptcy, hundreds more (including my parents) sold their property and ranches/farms they had worked their whole lives to get.

Point is, sometimes (more often than not) the environmentalists don't know wtf they are really talking about. In this case, they not only put hundreds of people into bankruptcy/taken their dreams away from them and they were dead wrong about what was going on.

The government said they would help pay for re schooling of anyone that was dependent on the farm to make a living, but over 75% of these people were over retirement age and using the farm to pay for their bills. They couldn't do anything else, even with school. And 1/2 the people got turned down anyways.
 

v1_0

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

Point is, sometimes (more often than not) the environmentalists don't know wtf they are really talking about. In this case, they not only put hundreds of people into bankruptcy/taken their dreams away from them and they were dead wrong about what was going on.

I suspect that this is because it is usually an *emotional* issue. The thought is that anything man does is totally wrong for the environment, and should be stopped at once. Anyone fallout from this isn't their care, as they have moved on to the next hot-topic...

Maybe I'm cynical, but this seems to be the pattern.
 

rjlipscomb

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

In Florida, the salt water property line is defined by the "mean high tide line"..which in itself is very ambiguous. It has at least kept property owners from fencing off the area along the beaches where people walk. Freshwater is different and you can own land submerged and out into lakes. I am not sure about rivers....

Unfortunately, this is only partly true. The State and Feds can came any portion of the property above the mean high tide line that has "wetlands" vegetation growing on it. They can prevent the property owner from disturbing the wetlands vegetation. In other words, you own it, pay taxes on it but cannot utilize it for your own purposes.

Also, some ocean/bay beach front property includes the "bay" bottom which gives the property owner "rights" below the Mean High Tide line.
 

And-Con

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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

ya'll have clearly never encountered the true joys of permitting, we own and have owned for at least 25 years a piece of property~30 acres right on the water. Now to call this land is a bit of a stretch, it is very much so lowlands, but we've been trying to permit a house on that piece for the last 10 years-honestly a decade and ~100k in lawyer/environmentalist fees later and yet they still wont let it fly, the dep was actually not that bad, but the corp of engineers is ridiculous, we have agreed to give a large portion of the land to various conservation groups, are doing over 100% mitigation(fixing up other swamps) have taken huge efforts to limit its impact(actually putting in a series of bridges instead of an 800 foot gravel driveway among other things). We previously owned the house on the adjacent property, same lowlands situation and the current owners have since filled in over an acre of the stuff. they haven't gotten caught yet but when/if they do, they are up a creek. ps if anybody on here knows much about pine island, fl (the island between sanibel and cape coral) the first house was the big red roof in the woods south of pineland marina, but when we owned it it had a silver roof
 

cheburashka

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Messages
715
Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

The real crap was that the government also charged people by the year to use the water to cover the costs of upkeeping the canals and whatnot.

. . .

Point is, sometimes (more often than not) the environmentalists don't know wtf they are really talking about. In this case, they not only put hundreds of people into bankruptcy/taken their dreams away from them and they were dead wrong about what was going on.

You're dealing with two different groups here--scientists and bureaucrats. The problem here was that someone tried to put a tax on you that you didn't want to pay. That wasn't the scientists/environmentalists. That was the bureaucrats, trying to turn a situation to their advantage.

What the environmentalists did there has worked, not just for the suckerfish, but for the coho that live in that area. What happened to the farms is tragic, but those scientists are doing their job, and it is a job that needs to be done.
 

Iandayen

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Messages
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Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

So some bottom feeding sucker fish is more important than 2,000 people?

That move put those people out of business, making them claim bankruptcy, losing their homes, their farms, and a HUGE part of the agriculture industry west of the Mississippi. Tulelake Horseradish farms may go out of business. They supply ALL of the horseradish to stores west of the Mississippi.

People don't think before they speak, and most of the time it's the environmentalists.

And no, it didn't work. They almost flooded the city before they had to let water into the canals, and even though they had full canals, they told the farmers that they couldn't irrigate with the water.

The sucker fish (also called mullets) were dying off faster than before because their feeding grounds were not receiving enough light to maintain the algae that they eat.

Coho salmon in that area were never "endangered" they never had a count on the fish and they still allow salmon fishing in that area.

What this was was a native american group saying the sucker fish were "sacred" to them and the environmentalists grabbing a hold of that and running with it.

It was a poorly made decision, and the government at that time was paying dearly for it. Even though some farmers received comensation, it was about 1/8 the amount their crops would have normally brought in.
 

jonesg

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Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,198
Re: Human gets fined $100k for boat ramp

ya'll have clearly never encountered the true joys of permitting, we own and have owned for at least 25 years a piece of property~30 acres right on the water. Now to call this land is a bit of a stretch, it is very much so lowlands, but we've been trying to permit a house on that piece for the last 10 years-honestly a decade and ~100k in lawyer/environmentalist fees later and yet they still wont let it fly, the dep was actually not that bad, but the corp of engineers is ridiculous, we have agreed to give a large portion of the land to various conservation groups, are doing over 100% mitigation(fixing up other swamps) have taken huge efforts to limit its impact(actually putting in a series of bridges instead of an 800 foot gravel driveway among other things). We previously owned the house on the adjacent property, same lowlands situation and the current owners have since filled in over an acre of the stuff. they haven't gotten caught yet but when/if they do, they are up a creek. ps if anybody on here knows much about pine island, fl (the island between sanibel and cape coral) the first house was the big red roof in the woods south of pineland marina, but when we owned it it had a silver roof

I recall a similar case that went to the US supreme court, a woman wanted to build something on her land and the local town wanted her to donate land for a bike path in exchange for a variance.
She said why should I give away my property, fought them all the way to the Supreme court and won.

Wetland is tough though, it plays a big part in watershed flood control.

Problem with enviro's and so called scientists is they often think they understand the eco system and its not as simple as it looks.
 
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