Hydrofoil's are they any good

Chinewalker

Fleet Admiral
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Aug 19, 2001
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8,902
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

I'm with Kenny on this one. The original post mentions a 150 Merc on an 18.5-footer. That boat should get up and boogie if it's properly set up, even with a good load. In my experience, whale-tails are used as a band-aid solution where there's something else amiss with the set-up. Too little power, too much/little prop, improper motor angle or depth, etc. In this particular rig, I think some set-up time will solve the real issue...<br />- Scott
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Scott & Kenny;<br /><br />I would never recommend any planing devise to solve "set -up" problems, nor do I believe Smart Tabs are for this purpose. Getting on plane faster is only a fraction of what they will do for the overall performance of a boat. If you guys ever deside to venture out and try them, I am positive you will walk away from the first ride with a different view. All of the editorial tests were done on new or near new boats that had no specific handling issues.
 

KeltonKrew

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Jul 31, 2002
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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

OK, let me throw this out there....I currenly have a vintage Boston Whaler with a Merc 35.. I currently have the whale tail and I think I slows me down...It gets on a plane pretty good if I trim the motor way down.<br /><br />Will the smart tabs be a better solution for me than the whale tail...I'm getting ready to strip my boat and re-do it and want the best solution to get on plane slower and move faster.<br /><br />Thanks
 

Chinewalker

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

KeltonKrew,<br /> You don't mention which Whaler model you've got. If it's a 13-footer, then the 35hp should be plenty of motor and I don't think any sort of planing device - tabs or tails - will be needed. The 13-foot hull is a good performer (assuming it's not waterlogged and the hull is clean & straight). It's a good, stable hull that can really boogie with modest power. If you're looking for top-end speed, your answer lies in more power, not bolt-on stuff. Keep in mind, the 13-wWhalers were never intended to be racers and will not respond to over-powering. A friend of mine put a 60hp on his and it was only marginally faster than it was with a max-rated 40hp. The hull had hit is wall.<br /> If you're running the 35hp motor on a larger Whaler, then you're looking at a too little power situation. The 15s like at least 50horses, and the 17s really come alive with 90hp or more. Here again, tabs or tails won't fix the problem, you'd need a bigger motor.<br /> I'm not saying tabs & tails don't have their uses, but in this case, the problem should be solved, not bandaged...<br />- Scott
 

KeltonKrew

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

my BW is a 13' hull......I guess when I get through the the resto, I'll run it w/out the whale tail and see what happens.<br /><br />Thanks!
 

walleyehed

Admiral
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Jun 29, 2003
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6,767
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Nautijohn, nothing meant against the tabs, I didn't mean it that way....I feel he has other issues and we haven't heard a WOT rpm, and I'm suspecting it's way low. That's the variable we need to add to the equation to answer correctly as to what needs to be added or other-wise.<br />No harm intended.... :)
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Kenny;<br /><br />Thanks for the sensitivity, and I don't mean to sound abrasive or defensive, but it is difficult to combat 25 or 30 years of historical solutions when judgements are made without the benefit of experience with the product. Again Thanks.
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

KeltonKrew,<br /><br />Next time you have the boat in the water run at WOT to determinethe top speed. Then remove the hydrofoil and run it again (same day under same conditions). That will tell you if the hydrofoil is affecting your overall performance. <br /><br />Now here is the deal, Use a set of ST980-30 Smart Tabs for the next test. The boat will plane easier, accelerate faster, ride and track better, and run 2 to 4 MPH faster at WOT. You may need to adjust the pressure which will depend on the balance of the boat. Do not change anything between tests except the hydrofoil and the tabs. <br />If you need help or advise to maximize the performance call me. If you do not achieve all of this after consulting with us, return the tabs to us (not the retailer where you purchased them) and WE will refund your money.
 

KeltonKrew

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Thanks nautiJohn.<br /><br />when I get my boat back together, I'll give them a try.....if there's a money back guarantee, I can't go wrong!<br /><br />I appreciate the help.
 

BillP

Captain
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Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

nautijohn,<br /> I really don’t care if you are advertising or not. I just think some of the comments posted were optimistic and omitted a few key factors. Don’t get me wrong. I like and use trim tabs but also use foils. There are advantages to both. If I had to make a choice between tabs and foils it would be elec tabs. I’ve made comments below in bold type…of course they are my opinions and are stated here for entertainment only. None are meant to offend… <br /><br />BillP;<br /><br />Thank you for the response, but I was not attempting to create a sales pitch. I have been accused of that before because the boaters who have not tried the product can not believe the claimed results. But the claimed results are from "editorial tests" over the last three years from four of the five leading national boating magazines in the USA, and seven foreign magazines (five from Europe and one each in Australia and New Zealand.<br /><br /> Trim tabs are trim tabs…the “automatic” types have been on the market since the 1960s by various mfgs and I’ve used them on two boats (one was plastic/aluminum and the other all aluminum). They had automatic/adjustable/smart/whatever, loading for pressure and worked in a “window” of speed and sea conditions. Unless the tab is “smart” (the politically correct way of saying a computer operates it) the results will be the same. “Claimed” results from magazines are influenced by profit margins…and they rarely, if ever, give bad press on products. Instead of reading magazines editorials go see what 99% of experienced boaters are using. <br /><br />With regard to mounting the foils, the most popular are plastic and sandwich the anti cavitation plate. Some of the metal type that I have seen can be mounted above or below the anti cavitation plate. Given that they are fairly straight forward, the mounting leaves little room for error. <br /><br />Even if the top of the plate is above water the bottom surface is typically in contact with the water. This provides Lift. I have seen "splash plates on tunnel hull boats that are designed to direct the splashed water back down toward the prop. Because the water hits the plate, which is about six inches above the running surface, it still provides lift.<br /><br /> I’ve never known excess lift at the stern to be a problem with foils, ever. I guess you mean the associated drag? “Splash” plates on rec tunnel inboards (like Penn Yans) are generally there to deflect water to the rudder for positive steering. I’ve never seen “splash” plates or foils on tunnel ob boats and believe this is 100% tab territory. The Doelfin on my 17’ conventional vee ob lets me trim up about 500-600 rpms faster on top end to get another 4-5 mph before the prop breaks loose. It feels like the boat is riding on the foil and a very small section of the bottom. It won’t do this without the foil. <br /><br />I understand that a very fast boat can ride high enough to bring the foil above the water, but I am not talking about the 1% or 2% of the specialty boats. Nor am I talking about a Master Craft ski boat where the inboard engine is mid ship (we do not recommend the tabs for these boats). <br /><br /> Breaking the foil above the water isn’t exclusive to the 1% to 2% speciality boats. From a small skiff to a fast ski boat it works the same. It is the elevation of the foil above the bottom of the boat that breaks it free at higher speeds. At low speeds the foil is in the water until a plane. Some foils are vee shaped to conform with vee bottom boats and once the boat gets on a plane these foils will be above the water too. The motor may have to be elevated for this installation. Just like tabs, foils have to be installed correctly too. <br /><br />There is no question that the motor trim will become more effective if the surface of the anti ventilation plate is enlarged (via a foil) but if the bottom of the foil remains in contact with the water this added surface will create unneeded lift. <br /><br />If the boat is under powered, and can use all of the lift it can get just to stay on plane, then the foil will help, but these boats will benefit even more from trim tabs since their surface area is larger still.<br /><br /> There’s another side to this story. Several “foils” are really flat plate. The Whaletail and another brand that I can’t remember the name are flat and probably equal in size to tabs. They have no lift and are basically a deflection plate. <br /><br />Please understand that their is a significant difference between and Active system and a manual system (Smart Tabs Vs Hydraulic/Electric). The amount of lift is constantly adjusted by the varying conditions of the boat (speed, load, water current, etc.) and the motor trim is more effective if needed because the lift is regulated so that there is a absolute maximum. A ridged plate will provide ever increasing lift as the speed of the boat is increased negating some of the effect of the tilt trim.<br /><br />By the way we do not make trim tabs for your 24' boat, and readily admit that the best solution for this size boat is manually adjusted tabs.<br /><br /> No offense but manually adjusted tabs are superior to any fixed or smart type because they can be fine tuned to every speed and sea condition while running and also correct listing from live load weight shifting. Example: Last Sunday I ran offshore straight into 3’-4’ confused chop with whitecaps. I trimmed engines and tabs to put the bow down to keep from pounding at speeds between 15-20mph. Anyone with experience knows you cannot maintain exact speed in this stuff because the waves control it. On the return trip the slop was bigger and on the stern. I trimmed the bow up with the engines and flattened the tabs to keep from stuffing the bow into the next wave as we surfed down (30 miles worth). Same speeds and totally different trimming needs. “Smart” tab types would have kept the bow down regardless of conditions and I don't need to try them to understand the "concept" of smart tabs. People need to be aware of these minor details. <br /><br />Our concept is fairly new (five years) and the vast majority of people who challenge the claimed results have never tried them. Those who have swear by them. <br /><br /> I assume the "concept" is new to you but this smart tab idea already has about 40 yrs of rec boating history behind it. Exactly what part of your concept is new for 2004. <br /> <br /> Over & Out.
 

catfish1

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
683
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

whats the big deal? foils have their place, and so do tabs ("manual" and "automatic"). each have their advantages and disadvantages. nickantanies may not need either! but if he does, i'm for the smart tabs because i have tried them! a hydrofoil will never go on any of my boats again! thats all i need to say about the performance difference in relation to planeing . smart tabs simply planed my boat noticably faster than the foil did! (whats the correct spelling for planeing anyway????) :eek: :rolleyes:
 

mrm

Seaman
Joined
Apr 9, 2001
Messages
74
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

For the money, Hydrofoils work. Planes faster, stays on plane longer and gives you more control of the boat. It might take off a couple of mph, who cares?? I'm going fishing not racing.
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
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Jul 30, 2003
Messages
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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Bill P;<br /><br />I am truly appreciative that you have taken the time to address many of the concerns that potential customers must have. Why? Because it gives me, first hand, the issues that I may otherwise not think to cover. No Bull! Thanks!<br /><br />First, Our company is not large enough to spend much money on advertising and if you check the magazines it will be apparent. I won't debate the motivation behind editorials, but I will concede that editors are looking for products that can benefit the consumer ( that is their purpose) and if they think it won't they simply ignore it altogether. They are not supposed to be a consumer watch group.<br /><br />Next; I am aware of most of the other "automatic' tabs, simply because we needed to address them when we applied for the patent. Olson was one that used a coil spring, and ultimately failed for some very good reasons which you correctly addressed. Smart Tabs (by the way I personally dislike the name) are different in a number of ways which produce significantly different results. I will address that for you in a second.<br /><br />The issue of actual size or surface area has two points. There are a number of foils that are quite large, and will provide more lift. However; Trim tabs, when deployed, attack the water more aggressively in the early stages of acceleration. We provide a total five different tab sizes and designs which are proportionate to the boat size.<br /><br />With regard to hydraulic or electric helm controlled tabs, you are correct when you say that you will have more attitude control. This is exactly why we have not made larger tabs for the larger boats. <br /><br />Let me give you our point of view! <br /><br />Reason #1: As the boat gets longer in length they usually get wider. The wider the boat the more difficult it is to control port to starboard attitude. To the degree that in some situations you may find it necessary to deploy one tab completely while bringing the other all the way up. We can not do this, and therefore will not make tabs for larger boats. <br /><br />The smaller, narrower, and lighter boats are easier to control (port to starboard) and we do this very well by maintaining a regulated pressure. However, if you have a 450 Lb. cousin with two cases of beer who insist on sitting on the far port side, hydraulic or electric tabs will correct the list better if the tab plate is large enough.<br /><br />#2) We find that the smaller boat owner uses his boat differently than the owner of a 25 to 30 foot boat. These smaller boats are not destination boats, they are fun sport boats. Consequently the driver has more to do, such as watching the skier behind him or holding the rod while trolling. The active / automatic feature of Smart Tabs is a distinct advantage.<br /><br />#3 They are safe! When manually controlled trim tabs are used on a 30 ft sedan with twin inboards, the potential for severe handling problems from misuse is less. For example: this 11,000 Lb.. boat will likely have a cruising speed of 22 to 25 MPH. It's heavy, it draws a lot of water, and it is slow. If someone make the mistake of deploying one trim tab (when not necessary) the boat will list hard and steer hard to the list side. Drinks will go on the floor, and it will be uncomfortable, but easy enough to correct without a crisis.<br /><br />Apply the same situation to a 19 ft boat that weighs in at 2500 lb., and runs 40 mph+. You have a very different story. People can go into the water in a flash. How likely is it, well when your towing the skier and/or allowing the 7 yr. old to help "drive" the boat, the odds go up.<br />Besides cost this is one of the biggest reasons the small boat manufacturer refrains from offering manual trim tabs on these smaller boats.<br /><br />What makes our product new or different? How do Smart Tabs differ from the Olsen spring loaded product or the plastic plate that flexes?<br /><br />In both cases the Olsen and Tempo products increase in resistance to compression (or flexing) the more they are compressed. Obviously you can design a special shaped coil spring to be linear in resistance to compression, but they did not.<br />The effect was that the lift pressure increased the faster the boat went - exactly what you do not want. Once the boat is on plane the pressure should be reduced. <br /><br />Additionally; There was no way to control the resistance ( pressure ), "what you got is what you get". It was too much for some boats, not enough for others, and on occasions ( depending on load) OK for some.<br /><br />And lastly, the Olson tabs reacted instantly to every change in water pressure. Not good, especially if the boat leaves the water and the tabs slam down and create breaks on reentry.<br /><br />How do we address this?<br /><br />The nitrogen gas actuator comes in varying pressures and we match them to the predicted load they are likely to lift. <br /><br />Next the pressure can be regulated (adjusted) by the customer to fine tune it to his boat. Example. a torque list can be eliminated by increasing the pressure on the port side and reducing the pressure on the starboard side.<br /><br />And finally, the pressure is reduced once the tabs are up and the boat is on plane at running speeds. Here is how! The actuator has no spring, it is filed with nitrogen gas and a small amount of lubricant. Both have a function. The pressure in regulated by the transfer of gasses from one side of the piston to the other through a small valve. By regulating the size of the valve hole, the resistance (load required) to compression is more (the valve can also act as a restrictor) than the load required to maintain the compressed state (position). In short what happens is that as the boat is accelerating to plane the tabs are held down with more force than when the are up (retracted) and the boat is cruising on plane.<br /><br />The oil is used for both internal lubrication and to dampen the movement so that it does not react to every minor change in water pressure. <br /><br />This control of the pressure allows for more lift at slow speeds, and a regulated lift at cruising speeds. Since the pressure at cruise speeds is reduced and regulated, the bow down issue is not an issue in either flat or following seas. With the tilt trim on the motor, the bow angle can still be changes because the pressure of the tabs is controlled to a lower level.<br /><br />One side note: Tracking through waves or wakes at an angle is also improved because the plates will control the attitude (automatically) port to starboard as well as bow to stern.<br /><br />Again Thank You for the opportunity to address concerns that May not have been addressed.
 

BillP

Captain
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Messages
3,290
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

nautiJohn,<br /><br />Thanks for the description on how your tabs work. It sounds like an adjustable automatic variable bleed. <br /><br />I realize valve changes may be a task to change but can you just lean over the transom and tweak the values while in the water? Or is it a do it on land and change parts procedure? How long to adjust a tab...30 seconds...5 minutes?<br /><br />Bill P.
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Still waiting on the WOT RPM, so we can determine if you have a PROBLEM, or actually NEED a device to plane sooner....Cart is so far ahead of the horse, you can't see it anymore.....
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
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Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

So much for a simple answer to a simple question.<br /><br />I agree with Chinewalker. That motor should pop that boat out no problem. Nickantanies either has a mechanical problem, or he's way overpropped. I still say whaletales look really silly on V-6s, no matter what boat they're mounted on. On a Force, maybe. They need all the help they can get. But never on a Black Max. Never Ever!<br /><br />Addendum: Could that be an inline 150? 150Hp, yeah, right. 135 when it was brand new with current and wind behind you. I could definately see mounting a whaletail on an inline 150. Only motor more gutless out of the hole was the 402 p.o.s. All brands included.
 

Jdeagro

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Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

BillP;<br /><br />Thanks for the response!<br /><br />The actuator is far more simple than that. It is a sealed nitrogen gas filled unit, without a spring. The normal position is extended, and the compression of the gasses create the "spring" load or amount of resistance. For example the 60 lb actuator will require about 60 lbs of force to begin compression. <br />Side note : this is directly related to the lift on the stern.<br /><br />In order to maintain the same resistance throughout the entire stroke some of these gases must move to the other side of the piston, therefore a valve regulates the gas flow to the back side of the piston. What we were looking for was an actuator that would require more load in the early stages of acceleration then once the boat was on plane, ease off on some of the pressure so as not to push the bow down.<br />We accomplished this by making the valve hole smaller so that it restricted the flow if gas during the<br /> compression cycle. Once it stops compressing, it returns to the normal pressure.<br /><br />The adjustment is also much more simple. We simply change the attachment point of the actuator to the plate, which changes the leverage point. Give the plate better leverage to compress the actuator and you reduce the water pressure required. Less pressure less lift on the stern. And vise versa. The total adjustment is about 35% from one extreme to the other. <br /><br />To choose the correct size you first determine the boat length, then the HP of the motor ( sometimes the weight of the boat is also considered), and that tells you what kit. For example an ST1290-60 is a 12" x 9" plate with a 60 lb actuator. This would be used typically on boat from 16 to 19' with 90 to 140 HP motors. The adjustments mentioned above can fine tune it to the boat. If more adjustment is required we can exchange the actuators for ones with more or less pressure, because they are all the same physical dimensions. ( they come in 20, 30, 40 ,60, and 80 lbs.).<br /><br />Once installed on the boat the adjustments are nothing more than loosening one nut and sliding the actuator mounting (ball stud) up or down the slot to change the leverage point. The actuators are guaranteed for 2 years, and considered a wear item like shock or breaks. The typical cost to replace them (which essentially rebuilds the entire system) is $49. per pair. The technical specification for life is 50,000 complete compressions and extensions with a 5% loss in pressure. Actually the more they are used the longer they will last.<br /><br />The adjustment could be done in the water if access to the plates permitted because nothing is disassembled, but it is usually done when one the trailer.<br /><br />When the boat is cruising the plates become an active suspension system, which changes the ride and handling beyond imagination.
 

Jilly - 5

Seaman
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Messages
74
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Rather tan repairing the trim cylinders on my 21 1976 Wellcraft Nova deep-v(will do that another day), I blocked the stern drive so cavitation plate is even with keel and experimented by epoxying two 18" redwood shingles to the bottom at the stern about 12" outboard of the keel. With only myself and full fuel load, these "fixed trims" put the boat on perfect plane (42 mph at 4400 rpm with 15 square prop with 188 hp and 4600 lbs of craft). With four persons onboard, the boat "nosed". Soooo, I added two shingles at the bow, one on each side, just before bow-rise, at the keel. Boat rides like it's on foils, 37 mph with four, in up to 5' seas. Stern shingles are 8" wide, half-inch thick at the base. Bow shingles trimmed to 5" wide, sanded to three eights at the base. Certainly nothing adjustable, but lots of fun. Intend to experiment more this summer. Shingles and sanding wheels are cheap and allow for "tuning" the shingles. After I repair the trim cylinders (this summer ?), will just sand all the shingles off!
 

WillyBWright

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Messages
8,200
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Now THAT's ingenuity! NOW I've heard everything. And I thought I was the King of Cobble. I bow to your inventiveness. :cool:
 

walleyehed

Admiral
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
6,767
Re: Hydrofoil's are they any good

Nickantanies, if you still exist, can we get a max RPM figure??????? other-wise I'm begining to consider this a joke....
 
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