I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

[Toddavid]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

These threads are so weird to me. Someone mentions high tech four valve engines, another reminds of OB technology, and then we say those four valve multi cam engines can't work in a boat? Huh?

And someone says that turbos can't be cooled in a boat? Uh, water cooled turbine housings are on every diesel marine engine in the world, even little ones. And turbo engines always get worse fuel efficiency at high load? Huh? smoke is smokin' sumpin', you are so much better than that. One example doesn't a bad technology make . . .

One poster nailed this. Cost, cost, cost, oh and maybe cost.

Yeah, not sure what he was smoking on this fine holiday, but open vs closed loop is not specific to turbo vs normally aspirated engines, it is specific to fuel injection strategy, and closed loop at full load is common on most modern automotive engines for fuel economy and emissions.

Further, while the physical restriction that the turbo represents to the exhaust stream can elevate exhaust gas temps, turbos make their power from increasing intake density (boost), not from heat. In fact, they need to operate in a very controlled temperature range or their delicate internals can go molten very quickly.

Modern automotive engines run higher exhaust gas temps in general to produce cleaner emissions burn off, and direct injection helps greatly in controlling detonation and hot spots in the combustion chamber. Water cooled turbos run just as hot as air cooled, but they tend to last longer and suffer less from turbine oil coking after shut down, if there is an auxiliary after run pump in place. Their turbines would have to be jacketed just like current boat exhaust manifolds to ensure heat control.

All doable, but technology is lagging in the boat world in that regard. Possibly related to lower incidence of warranty failures and less required maintenance for the less complicated normally aspirated engines.

 

[matt167]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

I think it's just a fact of the wrong players are in the Marine game in the I/O sector. Both Honda and Yamaha 'could' build their engines into I/O engines. Honda could change a few parts with a couple of it's automotive engines just as they already do for their outboards and make a comparable engine to lets say a 3.0L GM 4cyl and with the VVT it would probably work well. Yamaha knows how to make a good engine too. The Yamaha powered Ford Taurus SHO's proved that... Heck, Even a Ford Modular engine could be a step into the future if they would jump back in the marine game, or even Volvo. They used their own engines in the past but just decided to buy from GM.. As long as the marine companies go to GM for their I/O's we will continue to see pushrod engines. The GM Atlas engines would probably make great marine power plants too, but GM is too far in the hole to develop anything new for a sideline venture like the marine industry.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

so why has no one made a cvt trans for a boat other than cost?

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

It's interesting that the discussion is confined to the engine block. Seems to me the failure points on i/o are the belloews and knee-joint transfer case. But that won't likely change because you have two options, OB and inboard (straight shaft). To me, the I/O is an attempt at the best of both: in-hull motor with a prop you can lift out of the water. But because, overall, they are a failure, seems better just to make a decision.

This statement: "Even outboards in saltwater if taken care of are good to go well beyond 500 hours!" misses an important point: outboards can run 100 hours a year every year for decades in salt water. It's nothing to find 2000 hour motors like you find 100,000 mile cars nowadays. Another reason OB's are superior for small boats, up untill you get big enough for inboard.

 

[tpenfield]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

If you are the type of person that likes to work on boat engines, then you don't mind that they do not always rival automobile technology.

Anyway, you are dealing with an application that requires about 10 x the HP as a similar car application. So, raw, low-end torque and power are what gets the job done. So, you do not see engines with high performance cams, etc., as you do with cars, plus the fact that reversion can occur at idling speeds, means pretty mild cams and valve action.

 

[Toddavid]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

It's interesting that the discussion is confined to the engine block.

Well, the title of the thread was I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

Surprised no one suggested a hybrid set up. Electric motor = Torque!

 

[QC]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

Surprised no one suggested a hybrid set up. Electric motor = Torque!

There is absolutely no upside to a hybrid in a boat, you lose around 15% efficiency and there is no braking to recover it. You lose some when you use an IC engine to generate power and charge a battery, and you lose when you use a battery to power the motor to spin the mechanical side.

And GM technology for marine is there, it is Merc and Volvo that determine what they use. Merc builds it's own 502's. GM doesn't even build them anymore.

Product Portfolio

Yes push rod, but VVT and Blown as well. Pushrods are fine at lower RPM and NASCAR pushes them to 9000+ RPM, so that is not entirely bad. Again, it is cost. Why build new engines when we buy old ones

Edit: Didn't even notice this was in Boat Topics. Moved to non-Repair I/O :redface:

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

There is absolutely no upside to a hybrid in a boat, you lose 15%+ efficiency and there is no braking to recover it. You lose some when you use an IC engine to generate power and charge a battery, and you lose when you use a battery to power the motor to spin the mechanical side.

If it wasnt for the high voltage required i think a hybrid would be a good idea if it was used as a power boost rather than a seperate power system. all the real high performance cars are switch to a hybrid system as they can add a extra 200-250hp for under 250lb which is a lot of power to have at the push of a button. So on a boat in the future a button that adds 200hp+ to the drive system to get you up to speed may be a nice option it just wont be on a bayliner.

 

[QC]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

But most of that power boost has to be sustained to maintain speed. That's the problem with boats, cruise speed requires 50 - 75% of your available power. It's the reason boats get 3 - 4 MPG when a comparable car gets 20.

Theoretically you could have a boost like that to plane the boat, and then use wide open throttle at a low RPM to maintain speed. That would be more efficient if you could keep the engine together. 250 lbs is actually a lot on a boat though too . . .

 

[jkust]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

I think this is a fair question for a new guy with a BL and a 4 cylinder no less. Like when my 8 year old asks me why they can't do this or that technology wise. The latest was why can't they make robot soldiers instead of having to have actual people on the ground. The answer is they likely could, but the cost is too high and there is such a thing as scarcity.
I think it is interesting that the only reason carbs are being killed off is because of the EPA not because of demand. I think my last carbed car was a 1982. The speed of marine design seems to move slow. As an example, my sig boat was produced exactly the same from 2002 up to 2009 with miniscule changes. Is it lazy designers or something else? I think the biggest change I've seen in the I/O's on the lakes since the introduction of MPI in 2002 was a cooler looking engine schroud.

 

[Maclin]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

Some, maybe most, higher tech "stuff" is aimed at keeping efficiency while staying within emissions regs. Automobiles are typically the biggest polluting demographic, or at least perceived as such. That is why many high-tech things hit there first and often, increasing efficiency and maintaining EPA regs for the MFG's fleet.

Lawn mowers and the like are not a big hit when trying to reduce emissions and the cost is also harder to "hide". Boats are the same, not a big bang for the buck for high-tech stuff that does double duty as emissions reg compliance.

 

[QC]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

As an example, my sig boat was produced exactly the same from 2002 up to 2009 with miniscule changes. Is it lazy designers or something else?

It's cost. This whole thread's answer is cost.

 

[jkust]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

It's cost. This whole thread's answer is cost.

Yep, it's cost. As much as one could complain about the stone age technology of I/O's, I like that the word venerable applies most of the I/O's in production today. That has a lot of merit when you need reliability and easily available parts and service as compared to having constantly changing technology and features. I'm glad we aren't discussing O/B's here.

 

[QC]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

We do some manufacturing where I work, truck biz, so some similarities. If you can make something, never change it, and just keep building as is, you've got it made. All manufacturers goal is to make no changes if the market will accept it.

 

[agallant80]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

You know the US Airforce says that the B52 will be getting close to 80 years before they look at if replacing them is worth it or not. Some things are designed right the first time and will take a massiave amount of R&D for small improvements. The GM push rod block are solid, why change them? As for progress I have a 2013 Mercruiser 5.0 and its pretty good on fuel, has cats, fuel injected, you can hook a NEMA system up to it and get all kinds of data out of it. I will love it when Mercruiser comes out with a 300HP motor that burns 3 gallons an hour at 4K RPM but that will never happen. I think the limits of what you can get out of gas are within sight. It will be the path of least resistance to go Diesel for better HP and GPH. I am sure in the next 10 years we will see small Diesel blocks starting to replace the tried and true GM blocks. Diesel also has one thing gas will never have, the vapor from Diesel does not explode!

 

[GA_Boater]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

To change things up a little, several have said cost is the reason for keeping old tech around. Actually, if a product does the job and is still in demand and doesn't need updating, the cost per unit goes down (disregarding inflation, labor and so on). So what goes up is profit. And profit drives business. Pure and simple.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

To change things up a little, several have said cost is the reason for keeping old tech around. Actually, if a product does the job and is still in demand and doesn't need updating, the cost per unit goes down (disregarding inflation, labor and so on). So what goes up is profit. And profit drives business. Pure and simple.

While I agree with that statement, the costs to marinize a more modern engine would be directly passed along to the consumer for some time.

For those not aware, GM marine does offer a 6.0L version of their LS engine that some companies have been using for inboards.
I would say it's more of the choice of Merc and VP not to use them. They would need to do most of the homework to make the newer engine work with a stern drive. It wouldn't be mind blowing stuff, but every boat sold with one would need to have closed cooling unless they could convince GM to cast an iron head for the LS. Exhaust systems would need to be made. Couplers, mounts, etc. In the end though, the costs to do this go to the consumer in a struggling economy, where most people aren't buying new boats like they use to.

Ford Modular engines, they're nice (now) in cars, but most aren't intended to be stump pullers off the line. The majority are high revvers ill suited to be mated with a relatively slow spinning stern drive. They could probably be built to do so, but with Ford erasing Mercury (cars) from their portfolio, and Lincoln being in poor health, I doubt you would ever convince Bill Ford that investment in a flat-lined niche market is a good idea right now.

Chrysler... Well, they've been out of the marine business the longest, and have had 3 dance partners in the past 10 years... Nuff said.

Toyota has/had their own marine division, and their own boat's. Not sure if they ever sold any over here?

Smaller engines to replace the 3.0L? Again, you would be depending on engines with mixed metallurgy, closed cooling is not a luxury. Most small engines now have a high RPM band, nobody is making a N/A engine that could directly compete with a 3.0L's torque output at such a low RPM.

All the new tech. I love it! In cars...
However... Reading through these forums for the past 3 years, it seems some people have enough problems keeping up with the maintenance and repair of their carbed, pushrod dinosaur. Add an ECU, turbo(s), VVT, closed cooling, DI, and the ships really gunna hit the fan.

 

[QC]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

For those not aware, GM marine does offer a 6.0L version of their LS engine that some companies have been using for inboards.

VP does use it. I link to the GM Product Portfolio in Post #27. There is cooler stuff in there as well

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

It's cost. This whole thread's answer is cost.

Absolutely true.

When you look at how well the current crop of diesel perform in recreational boats, they're vastly more efficient than similarly powered gasoline equivalents.

But they cost far more to manufacture and sell.

VW and CMD (Cummins Mercruiser Diesel) recently announced they will jointly produce diesels for marine applications.
http://wot.motortrend.com/volkswage...diesel-marine-engines-8604.html#axzz2UcIgq17v

They'll be producing a V-6 "TDI" engine rated at approx 350hp coupled to a Mercruiser drive , probably a Bravo (I II III)

It will not be cheap!!

 

[emilsr]

Re: I/o Engine Technology....Outdated?

4 valves, 4 cams, multiple turbochargers.....it's all available, just bring your checkbook.

1650 | Sterndrives | Mercury Racing

Like QC stated; it's all about money.

Mercury and VP are going to mess around and open the door to Ilmor even wider than it already is (they're the ones with the 6 liter GM tow motor).