I/O versus Inboard

Bifflefan

Commander
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
2,933
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Outboard, outboard, outboard.
I've had a couple of each and by far the O/B is the best choice in my opinion.

But if you must pick one of those two, go inboard. Just as hard to work on but you only have two seals to worry about and you have a lot less draft.
 

Mischief Managed

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
1,928
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I like that more and more "big" planing hull boats are going with outboard power these days. To me, it's clearly the best solution for speed, fuel efficiency, skinny water operation, low speed handling, and ease of maintenance.

Wonder how long before there's a 500 HP turbo diesel OB with twin props (I picture an IPS or Zues like package in a shiny box with massive transom clamps and a pivot) on the market? The Sea Ray 370 Venture is a proof of concept for a solution like that. Make one of those is a 45 foot model and you have an ideal platform for a trimmable Zues. Most of the hardware already exists
 

dogfish1

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Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
23
Re: I/O versus Inboard

After owning 20 boats and boating for over 50 years I can honestly say that I disagree with most of what you have said. I have owned several I/O's and several inboards and inboards don't burn more gas and they are cheaper to maintain. I could list a lot of reasons for both but don't want to write a 2 page letter.
The larger the boat, you go with inboards. period!
You like to make absolute statements, here is another one "The world is flat":D
I am not trying to discount your "50 years" of boating experience but it is telling. When you first started boating gas prices were $.30/gallon, today I am paying over $4/gallon at the dock a 13 fold increase. Even when adjusted for inflation the cost of gas has increased considerably. Also boats are packing more engine (HP) then ever before because people want to cruise faster. The point being that a drivetrain that can provide a 30% savings in fuel, as outdrives do compared to inboards on some boats, you can realize a real operating cost reduction. I am sorry if you disagree but the 30% savings is well documented from many testing sights. I realize you may have owned 20 boats but I highly doubt you have ever owned two of the same boats comparably equipped with one being IB and the other an IO and then ran them with thousands of dollars worth of test equipment.
Further in the efficiency department I don't know why Americans are so adverse to the use of diesel engines especially in the soccer mom SUV's you see everywhere. Think about the potential powerplant cost savings if the big three started mass producing a small diesel engine, you would see diesel engines being built on the economy of scale that has made chevy 350's so stinkin cheap. I guess that is a dicussion for another time. Also not knockin Americans, I am one, just sayin.
 

smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I for one have 3 diesels and have not seen a penny of cost savings with them.... sure my 4x4 crewcab dually gets 15 mpg and a same year gasser gets 12 but gas is $3.30/gal and diesel is $4.17/gal

my Bmw gets 30 mpg and a VW passat diesel gets 40 (just numbers to compare... both gas and diesel could see higher numbers) but again fuel cost pretty well eats that up
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Damn!! I tried to stay out of this one, but I can't. I have one statement. It used to be my sig. "In God we trust, all others show us your data." Jeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! And the data is flippin' easy to obtain :facepalm:
 

haulnazz15

Captain
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
3,720
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Damn!! I tried to stay out of this one, but I can't. I have one statement. It used to be my sig. "In God we trust, all others show us your data." Jeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! And the data is flippin' easy to obtain :facepalm:

Agreed.
 

frantically relaxing

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
699
Re: I/O versus Inboard

this has got to be a joke. basically everything the OP is incorrect regarding the benefits of an I/O. the only possible benefit with an I/O is reversing. i could teach a monkey how to maneuver a true inboard in an hour. .
Then by all means, PLEASE come to our harbor and teach the monkeys who drive all the inboards around here how to do it. It's pure entertainment watching these guys in their Mastercrafts and Malibu's continually miss the trailer-- then rather than back up a few feet and try again, they back up 50 yards, then drive around in a big circle to try it again. I can trailer the houseboat faster than some of these guys.
;)
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,328
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Then by all means, PLEASE come to our harbor and teach the monkeys who drive all the inboards around here how to do it. It's pure entertainment watching these guys in their Mastercrafts and Malibu's continually miss the trailer-- then rather than back up a few feet and try again, they back up 50 yards, then drive around in a big circle to try it again. I can trailer the houseboat faster than some of these guys.
;)

Here is how the locals do it here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFxb5HvkKEY
"Worm" Boat Docking - YouTube
 

sasto

Captain
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
3,918
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Then by all means, PLEASE come to our harbor and teach the monkeys who drive all the inboards around here how to do it. It's pure entertainment watching these guys in their Mastercrafts and Malibu's continually miss the trailer-- then rather than back up a few feet and try again, they back up 50 yards, then drive around in a big circle to try it again. I can trailer the houseboat faster than some of these guys.
;)

I've ran my share of single screw inboards from 37' to 19'. I first learned on Shamrocks. Then the bigger ones, some with thrusters. Never a problem!

Then a buddy bought a Mastercraft and kept it at my dock for awhile. He looked like a monkey bringing her in. I told him I would give him a lesson. After a half dozen approaches I finally landed her. Thay are simular to what I have now. No rudder without prop wash. Thay handle like a dream at speed, otherwise we have to come in hard. Practice away from crowded places.


I've seen a few of the vids. This is an event I will attend in the future. I have a love for those nor'easters. Never been on one, but I have a plan to convert one of those lobster boats into something S.FL style.
 

smclear

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
626
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Then by all means, PLEASE come to our harbor and teach the monkeys who drive all the inboards around here how to do it. It's pure entertainment watching these guys in their Mastercrafts and Malibu's continually miss the trailer-- then rather than back up a few feet and try again, they back up 50 yards, then drive around in a big circle to try it again. I can trailer the houseboat faster than some of these guys.
;)

I grew up with a 16' Century inboard. Then had 2 I/O's before getting my current 18" Century inboard. I will testify that it was absolutely easier to get the I/O's on the trailer. But.... My boats sit on a lift for the season and only go on (and off) a trailer once per year. Even if that were not the case it's my opinion that I did not get a boat for the joy of putting it on and off the trailer. I got a boat for the joy of being out on the water. If I had to suffer a little at the end of the day it's a small price to pay. I said this earlier, it's a matter of personal preference. If you prefer an I/O or an outboard, well, more power to you. I support your decision 100%. Just don't look down on us inboard guys for our preference (not saying you were looking down us to begin with).
 

25thmustang

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,849
Re: I/O versus Inboard

From what I recall, owning my 29' cruisers with inboards, I/O boats with the same power and same weight would get better fuel economy and higher speed. The inboard boat seemed to handle better around the dock.
 

dogfish1

Cadet
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
23
Re: I/O versus Inboard

Damn!! I tried to stay out of this one, but I can't. I have one statement. It used to be my sig. "In God we trust, all others show us your data." Jeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! And the data is flippin' easy to obtain :facepalm:
Not sure who's data you want to see? I don't think anyone here could supply objective data since most of us wouldn't have the boats and equipment to do so. I did already say anyone interested could look at boattest.com and review their sea trials. It is free to view most of their results. As an example they have two similar 38' searays one with Bravo threes the other with a ZF tranny inboard. The Bravo boat cruised at 27.3MPH while delivering .98 MPG, the inboard 24.3MPG while delivering .71 MPG. Top end was 43.8 MPH with the Bravos and 34.7MPH with the inboard. Another example was a 32' Searay one with a bravo 3 one with a Hurth inboard. Cruise for the Bravo was 26.7 MPH @1.41MPG, inboard cruise was 24.8 MPH @.95MPG, top ends were 39MPH for the Bravo and 35.4 MPH for the inboard. The 38' boats were within 20 HP of each other the 32' boats had the same 300HP engines.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I was actually referring to boattest.com, and was not pointing at you. One of my biggest pet peeves is guys that claim good fuel economy from straight inboards. Done in this thread by multiple guys. It's simply not true. That does not mean I am anti-inboard. I am anti-inboard for speed maybe. But primarily I just want data, not conjecture stated as fact. Drives me nuts. Another example, where there is "data" is the claim of better shallow water attributes for an inboard. How? Maybe less draft at full speed, but I can bounce off stuff with an I/O at low speed with the drive up and not hurt anything. Try that with an inboard.

In the interest of full disclosure, there was another similar thread recently. A guy claimed that a tournament boat (IB) may deliver better fuel economy at the lowest planing speeds where he would be pulling a waker or tuber. That in fact might be true, so there are exceptions. But overall? No way. Not even flippin' close.

I think you answer some of your own questions though in the first post as there is kind of a horsepower limit. Almost all 25 - 35 ft planing hulls are twin I/O though. Start to run out of support by customers and builders above 40 ft. But there are exceptions for sure. Also, there seems to be less advantage with trim when you go this big. You could argue the fastest and largest ocean racers are almost all I/O.

Odd, but you go even bigger and jets make a showing. I am not clear on when they crossover for efficiency and benefits, but there are many examples in the largest super yachts. Another interesting point is the largest ship in the world is indeed a single screw inboard. Uses the largest engine in the world which dispels some other myths as it is a two stroke and is the most efficient diesel engine I believe as well.
 

frantically relaxing

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 19, 2011
Messages
699
Re: I/O versus Inboard

As to that guy docking that boat in the video, I wanna see him do that from up in the wheelhouse... ;)
 

dogfish1

Cadet
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
23
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I was actually referring to boattest.com, and was not pointing at you. One of my biggest pet peeves is guys that claim good fuel economy from straight inboards. Done in this thread by multiple guys. It's simply not true. That does not mean I am anti-inboard. I am anti-inboard for speed maybe. But primarily I just want data, not conjecture stated as fact. Drives me nuts. Another example, where there is "data" is the claim of better shallow water attributes for an inboard. How? Maybe less draft at full speed, but I can bounce off stuff with an I/O at low speed with the drive up and not hurt anything. Try that with an inboard.

In the interest of full disclosure, there was another similar thread recently. A guy claimed that a tournament boat (IB) may deliver better fuel economy at the lowest planing speeds where he would be pulling a waker or tuber. That in fact might be true, so there are exceptions. But overall? No way. Not even flippin' close.

I think you answer some of your own questions though in the first post as there is kind of a horsepower limit. Almost all 25 - 35 ft planing hulls are twin I/O though. Start to run out of support by customers and builders above 40 ft. But there are exceptions for sure. Also, there seems to be less advantage with trim when you go this big. You could argue the fastest and largest ocean racers are almost all I/O.

Odd, but you go oven bigger and jets make a showing. I am not clear on when they crossover for efficiency and benefits, but there are many examples in the largest super yachts. Another interesting point is the largest ship in the world is indeed a single screw inboard. Uses the largest engine in the world which dispels some other myths as it is a two stroke and is the most efficient diesel engine I believe as well.

Ok, now you are talking my world, I am a Chief Engineer with Maersk Line. The E class you are referring to do not have a transmission, no large slow speed diesel does, the prop is directly coupled to the engine. The engine reverses direction to go astern, the newer engines are camless and use electronics to control exhaust valve, and fuel valve timing. Two stroke diesels are not necessarily the most efficient however you cannot get enough power out of a 4 stroke in the space provided, if you go with medium speeds that have higher outputs you have to couple them to gear boxes and the efficiency goes in favor of the slow speed two stroke. The two stroke engines are reasonably efficient but they burn a lot of cylinder oil, on the 14 RTA 96 flex the biggest in the world at 108,000 HP they are burning over 1,200 liters per day, that is about a $1,800 of cylinder oil a day. The engine burns about 260 tons of fuel a day at $600 a ton for the cheap high sulfur fuel = $156,000/day.
On high speed ferrys or anything above ~33knots water jets prove to be more efficient because they have less running gear in the water, no rudder, shaft, struts etc.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I am a Chief Engineer with Maersk Line.
LOL :D

The E class you are referring to do not have a transmission, no large slow speed diesel does, the prop is directly coupled to the engine. The engine reverses direction to go astern, the newer engines are camless and use electronics to control exhaust valve, and fuel valve timing. Two stroke diesels are not necessarily the most efficient however you cannot get enough power out of a 4 stroke in the space provided.
Knew the direct drive stuff. Was not aware of the oil burn although I do believe from a lb/hp/hr position the RTA 96's are among, if not the, highest efficiency recips in the world. Obviously it's $ out the stack that matters, not lbs/fuel out the stack. I happen to be in the diesel engine biz. 35 years. I specialize in nat gas in diesels. Similar to what they do with LNG tankers, but for on-highway trucks.

Considering your background, my data comment should be right up your alley. Sorry it looked directed at you. Definitely wasn't.

Your thread, hijack as you please. Sorry I started it :)
 

jbach

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
32
Re: I/O versus Inboard

i'd like to see the data concerning gas mileage of an inboard vs I/O. i have to believe that an inboard is more efficient getting horsepower to the prop, but does an I/O lift the hull out of the water enough to increase mileage a considerable amount, i'm not convinced. as far as maintenance, how often do we see these questions?

won't go into gear, won't come out of gear.
tilt won't go up. tilt won't go down.
took three days to change a raw water impeller.
are my u-joints bad?
do I have an alignment problem?
is there water in my tranny oil?
how often should i change bellows?

i'd like to hear from folks that have moved from an I/O to inboard and would willingly go back? i know i certainly wouldn't
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: I/O versus Inboard

I/Os lose about 20 - 30 bhp flywheel to propshaft. IBs about 10. The difference is a double hit with most smaller IBs. The hull is designed to flatten, or maximize, a wake, and the prop pushes down some which pushes the bow down some. Basically you use horsepower to make your boat heavier. Very bad for fuel efficiency and speed (kind of the same thing). Go to boattest.com, and you can find probably 100 examples to pore over. It's like 2.5 mpg vs. 4 worst case; 3 - 3.5 best case. I/B to similar sized I/O. They are different boats, for different purposes, but the data is very clear. Very few production IBs exceed 45 MPH. almost all I/Os do. Many faster than 60 MPH with the same horsepower as a similarly sized IB with the same hp. I am not a hater, and I will offer that I consider I/Os an engineering abortion, but they have seriously improved. I personally hate the idea of two 90 degree changes in power direction, but the facts are what they are: The damned things work.
 
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