Ignition/Power Issues

[exbabylon]

I've read and re-read the thread about starter problems and have not found anything that has helped me find the answer to my problem.

Here's the situation...

I inherited a boat from my father... it hasn't been on the water for a few years, but ran excellent last time it was out. It is a late 70's 17' Apollo with a 4cyl OMC I/O. Before dumping money into plugs, wires, oil change, etc. I wanted to make sure it would crank over.

So I pulled the plugs, jumped the battery, turned the key and I had all of the accessories (guages, horn, pump, blower, lights) but only a click when I tried to start it. Remembering that the battery was probably 10 years old and a possible amp sink I removed it and installed a new one. After doing so my problems began...

After the new battery was in place I turned the key into the on position, and no power... no blower, pump, lights, horn or guages. When moving the ignition into the start position I get nothing. Double checked the battery, it was fine. I checked the voltages at the starter selenoid (where the positive feed from the battery terminates) and got a full 12V.

Out of curiosity I tried to jump the two posts of the coil with an insulated screwdriver. It seems to engage the selenoid but no crank from the starter. For what it may or may not be worth I can jump the coil and get the same response from the starter with or without the ignition on.

At first I thought that perhaps it was a main fuse (I understand that there are two 50amp mains on the engine block), but the fact that I have juice at the coil makes me question that.

In A Nut Shell: I had juice to the instument panel while jumping it but it wouldn't crank over. Assuming a very dead battery acting as an amp sink I replaced it with a new one and afterwards had no electronics at the instument panel. I can jump the posts on the coil and the selenoid engages but starter does not crank over.

Thanks for everyone's help... I look forward to getting this old girl running!

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Let's see if i can help. Fresh battery fully charged is what we are starting with correct?
Good power to the starter. Try jumping the right little wire to the large wire on the starter.
If you try jumping the left little wire to the large wire all you will get is the starter turning but not the bendex engaging.
You do know that you never run this engine without water to the outdrive.
You never run the engine with the outdrive up, only fully down.
good luck post your results

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

got the electrical system up and running... unable to get the starter to turn. must be bad. all that aside i've got bigger problems and need your advise...

tried to manually turn over the engine to make sure it wasn't seized... broke a bolt trying to get the crank to turn (plugs were out).

so I think I'm looking at a new engine. I would try to rebuild this one but even if I did there's still a good chabce that the block is cracked.

can someone please point me in the right direction? what engines are direct bolt options? where is the best place to pick up a rebuilt or rebuildable replacement?

the current setup is a 1979 OMC 120 with a 400 sterndrive. several localg marinas told me a rebuild would run around 5K. I'm hoping to find an iron duke (or equivalent) with ablown head gasket for cheap and rebuild it.

thanks for getting me this far, look forward to the next set of advise.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Ebay is good. Get a 3.0 marine if your going with a new engine. A old car block 2.5 from a chevy II or nova, cavailer. 3.0 was never put in a car.

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

So I've been doing some research and it looks like the GM 2.5 was used in a lot of cars. Will ANY GM 2.5 or 3.0 4 cylinder inline bolt up to the OMC Sterndrive? If so I found a rebuildable GM 2.5 that came out of a FWD vehicle from the early 80's (Pontiac I think). Does the FWD factor make a difference?

Also, is there a Mercruiser branded engine that is a direct replacement for the OMC 120? A lot of people are selling mercruiser 140 GM engines and I am under the impression that these are the same as the OMC 120. I believe the water pump for my OMC is in the Outdrive... if I were to buy an automotive longblock would I be able to run it in a marine application?

Thanks all for your help, the boat isn't worth a lot, but it sure would be nice if I could find something economical to get it in the water at least for this year.

 

[daydreamer1252]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Please note that the 2.5 L GM engines used by Mercruiser and OMC were not the "Iron Duke". That is a different engine completely. There are some (few) parts that interchange but they are not the same engine. Just so you don't buy something that you are sorry for later.

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Thank you for the heads up... are there ANY automobile engines that will bolt up as a replacement? I take it from what your post said that the OMC and the Merc 2.5 GM are the same exact engine?

 

[Maclin]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

You should probably remove the drive first then see if the engine will turn before you buy anything, I'm just sayin'....

 

[tmh]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Just fyi, I'd guess that boat in good condition with the engine purring is worth maybe $1200-$1500. With the OMC drive maybe a bit less. Before you go sinking new engine money into it, think about what your goal is. IF it's to get Dad's boat going again for other than practical reasons (like as a family heirloom or other personal reasons) then have at it. if you're just wanting a boat to use, you're likely spending more money and time to re-power that one than you need to to get on the water.

Good luck.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Daydreamer maybe you can enlighten me.

You posted that the 2.5L omc and merc. engines wheere not "iron duke" engines.

I beg to disagree, maybe down in texas there not. But every where else they are.

The 2.5L, 3.0 are "iron duke" engines. And they havn't changed close to 40 years. In my humble opinion best designed, best running, reliable engines ever.

The 2.5L block is the same as the 3.0L. As stated in a previous post. A 2.5L car block would have to be rebuilt "marinarized". 1980 vintage back to I believe 1978-1974.

Maintained right will outlive most boats and people.

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

chiefalen,

I too thought that the 2.5L & 3.0L GM Inline 4's were the same block in both the automotive and marine industry. So if I were to "marinarized" an auto engine, what would my options be?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

You posted that the 2.5L omc and merc. engines wheere not "iron duke" engines.

I beg to disagree, maybe down in texas there not. But every where else they are.

The 2.5L, 3.0 are "iron duke" engines. And they havn't changed close to 40 years. In my humble opinion best designed, best running, reliable engines ever.

The 2.5L block is the same as the 3.0L. As stated in a previous post. A 2.5L car block would have to be rebuilt "marinarized". 1980 vintage back to I believe 1978-1974.

Ayuh,.....

That's Not quite Right.....

"Iron Duke" is merely a nickname that changes it's meaning, depending on Who you're talking to,+ Where....
At the Hod Rod boards,... Iron Duke refers to the 151cid Pontiac motor, which is the 2.5l that GM has been using in All of their little cars,+ trucks since the mid, late 60s.....

The 2.5l, 153cid Chevy motor used in Boats, hasn't seen a Car since shortly after the ChevyII was introduced...
It's been nothing but a Boat Motor ever since,... Although it's rumored that it did a short stint in Postal Jeeps for a few years...

OMC, Mercruiser,+ Volvo have used the Same long block motors from Chevy for Many Years,...They just bolt on very different accessories on them...

Exbabylon,....
You need either a 2.5l Marine motor,.. or a 3.0l Marine motor,... Marine motor meaning it came from a Boat....
Any Automobiles that had the old 2.5l Chevy in them, have Loong Since been sent to the Smelters....

So if I were to "marinarized" an auto engine, what would my options be?

NONE......

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Thank you for your help... Bond-o, you just tied all of my questions together into one fluid answer.

Well, I was able to track down an engine... a marine shop about 30 miles from here has two used (but running!) 140 mercs (2.5L GM) that he says will bolt right up to my housing. He's willing to strip them of the merc extras and sell me the long block for $600.

Am I getting taken for a ride, or is this a decent price? Also, something that's been bugging me in the back of my head is the outdrive. It's the OMC 400 Sterndrive, but if the motor sat for that many years and got seized up, what are the chances that my outdrive is still in good shape? It's a 1979 so it's the mechanical shift version.

Thanks all for your help... how many hours should I plan on to pull this engine? I know I need to pull the outdrive first and go from there, but just curious how many days of work I'm going to miss

 

[daydreamer1252]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Cheifalen,

Bondo saved me a lot of work.

Thank you Bondo,

I was going to have to go and re-research that info.

Shame I didn't bookmark all the sources last time.

Again, Thanks.

 

[Maclin]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

If it was me I would pull the drive first and see if the engine can turn over by hand then before I bought another block or engine. But that's just me, aka Mr. Broke Tightwad.

 

[daydreamer1252]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Maclin

I think that actually includes MOST of us here. Would be a lot easier to take it to a trained technician...but the money and many times the backlog make that an impossibility. For me if it weren't do it yourself it wouldn't be do it at all!!!

 

[Maclin]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

I cleaned it up some, it is actually it is B.A.Tightwad (middle name is spelled A double-s)

 

[exbabylon]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Thanks for all your help. I'm going to pull the outdrive and go from there. Guess if I have to replace the engine I have to pull the outdrive anyways, this will just give me a head start. Will let you all know how it goes. While I'm doing this I want to replace the ball gears and boot. It's a '70 OMC 400, where is the best place to pick these items up?

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

As I am typing this I am sitting in Loch Sheldrake NY. There is a little town from here called Parksville.

My wifey and I are up here in my sisters house. Why because my 2 boys are at boy scout camp for a week. And my sister needs a slave to get the summer house in liveable condition after the winter.

In Parkville is a junkyard. I bought a gas tank from the guy maybe 40 years ago. We went past there yesterday. Only thing still there is the junkyard. Guess what I saw in there when I walked in just to take a look.

A bunch of chevy II. Old VW busses. Like it was still the 70's. I saw maybe 10 4 bangers.All "IRON DUKE " engines. They are still out there in junkyards all across the country.

Now here is my inexpert opinion. Junk that boat and engine.

 

[Bondo]

Re: Ignition/Power Issues

Now here is my inexpert opinion. Junk that boat and engine.

Ayuh,.... Except for the Sentimental Value,..... I Agree.....

Atleast the Drive,....