Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

[EM]

I'm in desperate need of help here. I have a Johnson 115 1977. My boat has always had starting problems, but seemed to run okay after warming up a little. However, it would conk out on me in the middle of the lake from time to time (once out of every three trips) and have a difficult time starting back up again. Also, at high speeds it would suddenly sputter almost as if a wire was grounding out or I was losing a cylinder or two. It always seemed to run much better during the warm months.

My uncle sold me the boat about three years ago, but he hadn't started it up for about eight years.

As far as the maintenance goes, I've rebuilt the carbs, put in new fuel lines, rebuilt the fuel pump, replaced fuel connectors, and cleaned out the tank. I can tell that I'm getting fuel to the carbs, because it was running after I performed this maintenance. But, it was still having the same problems as before.

One day I was on the lake and it was running all day without a major problem although it would stumble whenever I opened up the throttle and wouldn't get up to speed. I took it home and hooked up a fish finder to it, running it off the battery. The system is a 6 amp and is supposed to handle that one extra unit without any problem.

The next day I could not get the engine to kick over at all. I then used a multimeter and spark tester to test all the ignition equipment. My stator checked out fine, but my timer base displayed a low volt reading. I decided to change out those parts along with my rectifier and power pack since it had been sitting for so long. I used CDI parts. I was getting very little spark on my 1 cylinder before changing the parts out and no spark on the other 3 cylinders. Prior to installation, the I parts I ordered checked out fine using an ohmmeter. The plugs are new.

Still, the engine will turn over just fine, but will just not run. I'm not getting any spark at any of the cylinders now. A couple of points: I took the boat to a local boat mechanic about 2 years ago to try an solve the gremlin problem, and he said that the wrong spark plugs were installed in it so he put some others in it. It seemed to run okay for a while but it started backfiring a lot which it didn't do before. I ran it that way for a good 3 or 4 months, but it was going through plugs too fast. Turns out that the mechanic installed Champion QL77JC4 instead of the L77JC4. The Champion plug website specifically says not to install a resistor (Q) plug in place of a nonresistor plug otherwise it can damage the engine.

Also, when I removed the rectifier I noticed that the insulation on the positive wire had worn away and if I moved the wire it would spark once it hit metal. Could this have shorted out my other ignition parts or caused other damage to them?

The only two things left are to change all four ignition coils out and/or check the entire wiring system to make sure I don't have any loose grounds. Have any of you had these types of engine troubles, and did changing out the ignition coils have any effect. I've even heard that Johnson did a recall on those coils back in the day. Any help would be much appreciated.

EM

 

[ezeke]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

The correct plugs for your motor are Champion QL16V Surface Gap or QL77JC4 set at .030. http://www.boatsetup.com/SparkPlugChart.pdf

The ignition system requires 300RPM to produce satisfactory starting fire.

The larger Deep Cycle Dual purpose batteries are generally considered far superior for use with unregulated rectifiers/charging systems such as yours. The battery should always be fully charged for starting. No maintenance auto batteries should not be used.

The 6 amp charger is basically for maintenance of the battery and gauges and is not sufficient for much in the way of accessories.


Cold starting requires full chokes and it is necessary to check that the choke plates are 100% absolutely, no kidding, closed when you start the engine cold.

The only way to verify that the choke plates are fully closed is to take the cover off the carburetors and watch the plates while someone else cranks the engine. Adjust the plates by moving the solenoid in small increments.

The series of engines needs to have the ignition wiring thoroughly cleaned from time to time. There is a special need to clean the grounds. The ignition coils need to be bolted to clean metal along with their ground wires and the grounding strap running from the coil rack to the cylinder head needs to be in good shape.

If the ignition coils are cracked, bubbled or leaking, they should be replaced.

The black and yellow kill wire leading to the powerpack's post 1 (bottom left) will cause loss of ignition if there is any intermittent grounding of the wire between the ignition switch and the power pack.

I would immediately remove the rectifier and get a new one. A bad rectifier can destroy your entire ignition system by allowing the battery voltage to reach the ignition system. Besides, its a fire hazard. You can run without it but your tach won't work.

 

[clanton]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Search Rapair web site, some of these engines just needed the timing sensor air gap adjusted. Rapair also has plastic guage to check air gap.

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Great information ezeke; thank you. I'm gonna just switch to AC Delco M40FFX plugs since I'm getting mixed messages from all authorities regarding the Champion plugs.

I'm also going to change all my ignition coils out since they are so old and my grounding rectifier probably killed them. If this doesn't work I may have to go through all the wires to find the problem. I will keep you guys updated on the status.

Ps.,
My remote control box contains an overheating horn which goes off if the engine is getting to hot. Could it be possible that the horn is malfunctioning and is stuck telling the engine not to start? The horn is another 15 bucks. What do you think?

 

[wavrider]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Over heat horn cause engine to stop? NO but if it is going off check your cooling system, last time you changed water pump?

Check the boots of your spark plug wires for rust or corrosion, may just need to replace wires.

Follow this link and use troubleshooting guide for your engine.

http://www.boatpartstore.com/tips.asp

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Well, I finally got the coils in and installed them. They are CDI brand and they didn't fix the problem either. Also, I should mention that I tried to adjust the air sensor gap, but this is not possible with the CDI timer base that I ordered. Turns out that where the original part has the screws and nuts for adjustment the CDI part is filled with some kind of resin. Does anyone have an idea how to adjust this type of timer base, or if it can be adjusted? Also, the ohm level for the new CDI timer base reads at 40 ohms and the old timer base only reads at about 8 ohms. Pretty big difference there. Any comments on this one?

I also had a look at most of the wiring, some of it is hard to get to, and there doesn't seem to be any shorts or problems. I'm at a stand still as far as my expertise go, so I'm going to have to find a mechanic who works on these Johnsons, but these guys are few and far between here in NM.

One last thing, I noticed that there are five electrical cables that attach to the battery. Two I know are supposed to go to the positive terminal since they are red and pretty thick, and two of the black cables go the negative side for the same reason. But, there is a third black cable that is relatively small in diameter and is tough to determine which side it goes to. This cable may be for some other accessory or what not. Does anyone have any idea what that one could be for?:

 

[jakefreeman78]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Your hard starting when the engine is cold or has been sitting for a while could be due to your starter going bad. Mine had been going out for nearly two years and i would constantly have problems with low voltage during craking. When your starter begins to break down it requires more amps to get it to crank thereby reducing the amps and voltage that the electrical system needs to have in order to make it fire. I went through this for two years or more, get to the lake and literally wouldnt fire at all...have to jump it half the time....put different plugs in it and that would help for a while. anyway i recently had my starter rebuilt and she fires up EVERY time and purrs......now that is only my answer for the hard satrting/no fire problem. The other stuff sounds like you are on the right path.

 

[ezeke]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

There should only be one positive and one negative cable running from the battery to the engine. The power tilt and trim should have had a separate cable on the 1977 115.

The AC Delco M40FFX spark plugs you are using are one of two plugs that came with the motor originally (refer to the cylinder & crankcase diagram in parts catalog for confirmation), the other being the L77J4. Unless you have a problem with radio interference, the two plugs are interchangeable, but the Champions are generally easier to find.

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

So, I changed the starter and solenoid out since the old starter looked like crap on the inside. It was less money to change it rather than replace the brushes in the old one and also the armature connections looked burned. It was a good move since my engine spins like a champ now. The new starter is an Arco brand and the solenoid is a Sierra.
But, I'm still not getting any spark. I am starting to think that maybe I received a bad part, or it could be that the adjustment on the original timer base is necessary in place of the CDI timer base that doesn't have an adjustment at all. Before putting in the CDI base the old timer was measuring at 7.5 DVA and the CDI is not measuring any DVA at all. I called tech support at CDI and they said that they designed the timer base to always trigger, and therefore it didn't need an adjustment.
I also talked with a mechanic who seems like he knows his stuff pretty well so I'm going to take it to him after I try one last thing. I'm going to take out the CDI timer base and replace it with the old adjustable one and measure the DVA output and see if I get any spark. If not then it may be that someone shipped me a bad part; the most logical bad part shipped is probably the power pack since it can't be directly tested and once I put it on it's mine. It's a Sierra pack by the way.
I've learned the hard way but it seems like you need to be careful when ordering from the internet companies since they can ship you stuff that may be broken or send a substitute that they think will work but is different from what you ordered. That happened to me twice. One co. sent me CDI ignition coils and I ordered Mallory coils and another co. sent me a Sierra solenoid when I ordered an ARCO solenoid. Then if I want to send them back they try to use the idea that it's an electrical part and they don't accept them. If they do accept them back then I'm out at least 10-20 dollars for shipping and possibly a restocking fee. My advice after all this, make sure you order from someone who is reputable and that you read their return policy before ordering. Also, make sure that they know that you won't accept a substituted part; to do this make sure you call in the order, not just place it over the internet. I've ordered from Iboats and they seem to be okay.

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

I know it has been a while, but I was able to find out what the problem was. My four ignition coils were burned out. I replaced them with new CDI coils and it runs great. What a relief.

 

[SKEETR]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Since you bought everything else some new plug wires would do the investment justice. Not to mention any potential future frustration. Use the serch feature there is some great tips on assembly.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

I've made the same mistake of replacing parts 'around' the problem instead of properly diagnosing first.
coils are ez to diagnose, look for a trigger signal on the low v side.
I find it easiest to start where the problem occurs, no spark? start at the plugs and work backwards, wires/coils/powerpack/ etc.

Went through that with my E350 van, guys were saying "try this" and "its probably that" , they should have said "we don't know but just throw money at it".

An old timer took me through the diagosis step by step and it cost $17 for a coil , this after spending $300+ on assorted elec parts.

the CDi website has very good diagnosis instructions, I balked at not having the DVA peak meter, I could have bought 2 with all the money I spent on parts that I didn't need. And I like to complain how much marinas would charge and how clever I saved all that repair money.
I crack me up.!

I notice as long as I do what I always did,
I seem to get what I always got.

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

The coils came with wires and shoes.

The method of testing for a trigger on the low volt side could indicate numerous other things: bad PP, timer, stator, etc... No one, or even a book, has yet to say how to test an ignition coil while removed from the engine and isolated from other parts. Once someone does that I will be pretty impressed. Also, no one suspected my ignition coils to be bad, or if they did they sure didn't say so. Everyone I spoke with said, "Oh those coils are very durable. You don't need to replace them unless they are leaking or look burned." Furthermore, people often forget that there may have been numerous problems happening at one time. My PP and coils could have both been bad, and the timer base may have needed adjustment. Besides, the parts were 30 years old.

I received one heck of an education about my motor in going through the process I experienced. Now I can fix the thing without taking it to any mechanic who could say anything about what's wrong, and could have charged me much more than necessary. Education and independence for me were well worth the money, especially in the long run. Now my boat starts up perfectly, runs faster and quieter than ever, runs cleaner, and is tougher.

Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy to do, and no one likes a knowitall. This article is really meant for the guy who is having ignition problems on his 1977 Johnson 115, and hasn't found a good explanation anywhere else.

 

[frank england]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

crank your engine at night and spray water(spray bottle) at high rpm,s) see if you can see voltage jumping anywhere.

 

[EM]

Re: Ignition problems on 1977 Johnson 115

Ha ha ha, that's a good one Frank.