I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

[QC]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

There really is no way to argue this sort of stuff reasonably, as reason has to be suspended to believe.

I totally disagree and believe that is a cop-out. Personally I think creation is much more logical than the concept of this universe poofing out of nothing from nowhere. But hang in there I have some more logic to throw at you . . .

What, is it a sin to type 'God' with an o? Talking about circles, if it's so far beyond 'our' limited capabilities to even begin to imagine the concept, how can we be talking about it? I can't help it if you can't imagine the concept, but I can and I think it's preposterous. I don't remember the order, but the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and God all went with the past. I sure miss Santa.

Why do you find it required to belittle other's beliefs? Not a great way to hold a discussion.

I came to not belive in a God(s) all by myself, nobody taught me that. Everybody said the opposite, I eventually thought, I don't think so, it doesn't make any sense. The idea of religion has to be put in your head, taught, perpetuated from before earliest memories until you're brainwashed by it. Primative fears and peer pressure tend to keep it going. The fear of God keeps children in line, it also helps keep the peasants from revolting.

Oh, but I have been there and now have come full circle to realise that there are no answers to these perplexing questions without some outside influence that we cannot understand. The reason that religion is so omnipresent is ultimately something outside our ability to understand must exist, this is the logical part . . . There is no logic in a belief in science. That is simply believing in what can be explained. Science has failed to explain our origins, only the path we have followed after our origination. That is not believing, that is knowing.

One thing I really wonder about is 'awareness' or 'conciousness' or the ability to 'think'. Possibly that's what you have labeled 'divine'. The ability of sacks of protoplasm to recreate is another wonderous thing. I know that's labeled a miracle by most. Me, I just wonder about it.

See now, that there is a wonderful thing to ponder and a great example of what I mentioned above. IMHO, it is not logical to believe that consciousness is an accident of some primordial ooze. In fact it defies logic. I also marvel at how certain sights and sounds cause electro and chemical stuff to rsult in an emotional reaction. How bizarre is that? And honestly what natural need is there for me to be enthralled with the beauty of snow covered mountains? The smell of salt air? Why do I like the smell of fine Scotch? Oh and why do I cringe at the sight of suffering and rejoice in the knowledge of compassion? These things do not help me survive, in fact, you could argue that they slow my selfish survival instincts . . .

Great stuff!! I Love this discussion, but it gets too weird too fast for too many. I firmly believe the older I get, that this can be a logical, calm discussion. It is not required that we fight or agree, only that we discuss where we differ and what leads us to differ.

BTW, I think JB's original question is unfair. Why do I have to choose between All Gods or None Gods? Seems to have left out a couple of really good choices in the middle . . .

 

[Dunaruna]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

[colour=blue]IMO, That fine scotch or the majestic mountain view is food for the soul. That's a feast I enjoy.

 

[samsam]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

[

"Oh, but I have been there and now have come full circle to realise that there are no answers to these perplexing questions without some outside influence that we cannot understand. The reason that religion is so omnipresent is ultimately something outside our ability to understand must exist, this is the logical part . . . There is no logic in a belief in science. That is simply believing in what can be explained. Science has failed to explain our origins, only the path we have followed after our origination. That is not believing, that is knowing."


It seems to me you are making my argument. Our origins are a mystery and the big bang theory does sound pretty fishy, but it's only a theory. It's the current best guess until more information modifies the theory or proves or disproves it. But the guess is based on known, provable facts. Religion seems to be the cop out, anything not understood is chalked up to God and that's that. How come after thousands of years, there are no facts associated with religion/God? A repeatable, provable fact, and not some sort of legend or hearsay that has been repeated for thousands of years. The fact that people have believed for thousands of years does not make their beliefs a fact or true. The fact that Jesus may have lived does not prove him to be the son of God or that God exists. The fact that humans haven't figured out their origins in no logical way points to a creator as the answer. It simply means they don't have the answer.


"There is no logic in a belief in science. That is simply believing in what can be explained. Science has failed to explain our origins, only the path we have followed after our origination. That is not believing, that is knowing."


This is sort of depressing and also why I said reason has to be suspended to Believe.

BTW, I think JB's original question is unfair. Why do I have to choose between All Gods or None Gods? Seems to have left out a couple of really good choices in the middle . . .[/quote]

What would they be?

BTW, how do you do the seperate quotes with the blue bar and the box, interspersed with your comments?

 

[rolmops]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

Samsam,your comments fail to intellectually stimulate me

If you look at a drawing of an atom with electrons flying around it and then look at a solar system, we see a repetition of the same concept.

You must be looking at a drawing of a Hydrogen atom, (one Proton (the sun) and one electron (the planet) circling the proton) any other element will look much different.

For instance, the second element on the periodic table is helium. It has 2 neutrons and 2 protons as the nucleus, (that would be 4 suns REAL close together) with 2 electrons orbiting in "shells" not in the ecliptic as solar systems do. The 238th element would really disprove that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, I too thought of the same linkage when I was kid, but a bit of knowledge disabuse me of that notion.

When you get a sound, scientific grounding on how the universe is built , you realize how lame the "religious" explanation is... and if you really, really understand a small piece of it, the more sure you are that there really is a God, we just don't have a clue of who he/she or it is, or the goal

Your point is well taken,but incomplete.I too had to study both physical and organic chemistry ad nauseum and I am well aware of the points you mentioned.However they do not debunk my ideas.They only show that there may be a lot out there that we have not yet seen

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

QC I like Darwins theory.

Ahh, but young puddle jumpa (said like Grasshoppa), evolution was created, next question . . .

Thats funny8)

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

QC- I gess the next question is how can you mix Addam and Eve with the theory of evolution.If im correct God made Addam and Eve and put them on earth as humans as we know of us today.If you think about it we have as the human race phyically change in even the last hundred years.Back then some one over 6 feet tall was very rare.Now its common to find people over 6 feet.

Crunch- what about the solar systems with two suns.If im right i think there are more of them single sun solar systems like ours.

 

[crunch]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

Crunch- what about the solar systems with two suns.If im right i think there are more of them single sun solar systems like ours.

Yup, even some with 3.... but 238? (that would be an isotope of Uranium)

 

[QC]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

samsam,

Reread my science comment. What I meant was that there is nothing to "believe" when it comes to true science. Science is supposed to be fact, again nothing to "believe".

You also skipped over my related point about Big Bang. The Big Bang is great, but nobody can explain the cause of the Bang . . . Interestingly when the Big Bang ws first proposed, the science community originally rejected it because it sounded a little too much like . . . creation.

I am not suggesting that you arbitrarily believe in a God or even Some Gods (the two alternative answers that I can think of that are not allowed by JB's original questions . . . ), I am suggesting that it is logical to think something or someone "created" the universe, that it is something or someone we cannot understand, and that science only can explain the result, not the origin.

Yes, "religion" which is not God, is based on translations and men and stuff that some fine difficult, but the set of rules set down by most have a lot going for them and I strongly believe that we should all choose a set and stick to it. This idea that we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what rules to follow, and which ones not to, is pretty scary if you ask me.

 

[crunch]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

Samsam,your comments fail to intellectually stimulate me

If you look at a drawing of an atom with electrons flying around it and then look at a solar system, we see a repetition of the same concept.

You must be looking at a drawing of a Hydrogen atom, (one Proton (the sun) and one electron (the planet) circling the proton) any other element will look much different.

For instance, the second element on the periodic table is helium. It has 2 neutrons and 2 protons as the nucleus, (that would be 4 suns REAL close together) with 2 electrons orbiting in "shells" not in the ecliptic as solar systems do. The 238th element would really disprove that.

Sorry to burst your bubble, I too thought of the same linkage when I was kid, but a bit of knowledge disabuse me of that notion.

When you get a sound, scientific grounding on how the universe is built , you realize how lame the "religious" explanation is... and if you really, really understand a small piece of it, the more sure you are that there really is a God, we just don't have a clue of who he/she or it is, or the goal

Your point is well taken,but incomplete.I too had to study both physical and organic chemistry ad nauseum and I am well aware of the points you mentioned.However they do not debunk my ideas.They only show that there may be a lot out there that we have not yet seen

Anything is possible I suppose, but the only place I can think of where you would get more than 3 stars in a group would be in the core of a Galaxy.... then you're talking millions within a light year or so to the next.... probably no planets (electrons) as the gravity from the next star perturbing the orbits of the planets would fling then off or suck them in.

Fun theory, but highly unlikely. 8)

 

[crunch]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

The Big Bang is great, but nobody can explain the cause of the Bang.

Been a while, but last I heard there where 2 theories depending on if the universe is open or closed.

If open (keeps expanding forever) then it's something about the energy potential of a vacuum.... lots of math with symbols I don't understand.

If closed (expands to a certain size, then falls back to a point (gravity), then explodes again) then it's called the cyclic universe.... of course then we are back to that chicken and egg again.

I’m betting on a combination of both theories.

 

[QC]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

QC- I gess the next question is how can you mix Addam and Eve with the theory of evolution.

Ah, but young Puddle Jumpa, you have never heard QC discuss Adam and Eve . . . In fact I have never proclaimed that there is a God, although I believe strongly that there is something that has played the "role" of creator, and that this "something" may in fact be God.

 

[millercm1]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

QC- I gess the next question is how can you mix Addam and Eve with the theory of evolution.If im correct God made Addam and Eve and put them on earth as humans as we know of us today.If you think about it we have as the human race phyically change in even the last hundred years.Back then some one over 6 feet tall was very rare.Now its common to find people over 6 feet.

Crunch- what about the solar systems with two suns.If im right i think there are more of them single sun solar systems like ours.

This is easy for me to explain. Humans have only evolved since GOD put Adam and Eve on Earth. IF HUMANS EVOLVED FROM APES THERE WOULDN'T BE ANYMORE APES WOULD THERE...

 

[treedancer]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

Ooo?.looks like someone has been in the attic.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

HMMMMM.....
Thanks for clearing that up!.....
I've been looking for positive proof since this thread started!.......​

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

I think it's time for haut to break out that monkey pic!

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b241/jjammer18/?action=view&current=CuriousGeorge.jpg
Here is my irrefutable proof!......
Ask & ye shall receive!......​

 

[Turin]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

according to the new testament, Jesus was sent by his father as the ultimate sin offering for the world, and i believe this.

The new testament also claims that this was done because the laws (of the old testament) were too much for man to follow. And I dont mean just the 10 commandment, but all the laws, no eating pork, and all the other jazz the Jewish community still follows.

So, If a jew manages to follow all these guidelines (or laws) will they still go to heaven denying the Son?

Some say YES, and I really would like to agree with this. BUT, The new testament also teaches that denying the Son is calling the Father a liar.

Im sorry but if the WHOLE bible is God inspired, wich it is, then it is written that answer is no.

If the whole Bible is tru than there are manny manny gods.

Read Genisis (cant tell you the exact verses because i dont have an english bibel.) sorry for my crappy transutation maby rolmops will help.

genesis 1

vrs 20 Duch bibel. And God said that the waters brought lots of living souls.

I tought only man had a soul.

vrs 26 and God sayd let US make make man a likenes of US.

I tought there was only one god


Genesis 6

vrs 1 And it happend as man on the earth multiplied and there doughters were born the SONS OF GOD seeing the doughters of man that thy were beautiful,

I thought there was only one son of god.


and so on.


Rol mops here are the duch verses maby you can tel the tru engish transulation.


I can go on for a bit but probebly the half transulated sentenses make no sens at all to you..




genesis 1

vrs 20 En God zijde dat de wateren overvloediglijk voortbrengen een gewemel van levende zielen:



vrs 26 En God zijde laat ONS mensen maken, naar ONS beeld en ONZE gelijkenis.



Genesis 6

vrs 1 En het geschiede als de mensen op den aard bodem begonnen te vermenigvuldigen, en hun dochters geboren werden.
Dat gods zonen de dochters der mensen aan zagen, dat zij schoon waren ,


Sorry for the lots of unreadable text.

 

[Turin]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

I think That religion can be a good thing if you dont see it like some thing more than a hobby.
If everybody in his public life ageed with sience.
And schools teached only sience.
And the goverment treated religieus groups the same as hobby groups.
so no extra monny to churces or other things (no religion in political programs)
no exptions when you are from a sertain religius group.
there would be less problems at least in Holland maby America to and children would see the madnes to what happened in the past.

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

I think we should round up all the christians and feed them to the lions. Then every one else could be forced into gay marriage and go on welfare.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: I'm sick of politics. Let's discuss religion.

I think we should round up all the christians and feed them to the lions. Then every one else could be forced into gay marriage and go on welfare.

Hey!.....
Lion's gotta eat, too!........​