Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

[SigSaurP229]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

after further research F_R, I owe you an apology. You are correct he does have a 1969 after 1969 they went to the new style ignition. The 1969 Hydroelectric does have the blocking diode (monkey nuts). I couldn't remember if the earlier style had the diode or not.

Now my crow eating out of the way.

You definetly have the wrong controls for your motor.


Sooo first things first there are two generations of HydroElectric shift 1969-1970 they changed to a different pump style in 1971.

For this engine you MUST buy Omc Type C gear lube, also known as OMC premium blend. It is about $11.00 per quart.

You also need the proper controls they look like this. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1973-Evinrude-Johnson-50hp-controls-electric-shift-yellow-plug-/181279606232?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item2a351b45d8&vxp=mtr

Without these things your boat is stuck in forward gear. To test and see if the lower unit will shift find the blue and green wire that go into the lower unit apply 12 volts to both wires to see if it shifts into reverse (FOR TESTING PURPOSES ONLY run a jumper wire from the hot side of the starter solenoid to the blue and green wire going to the lower unit). If it doesn't and you have the proper gear lube in it then you will know most likely that the solenoids are dead, and then it is a decision up to you if it is worth proceeding. If they are dead and you want to proceed let me know as I MAY have two solenoids laying around.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Thank you Guys! As of this posting, I still haven't "run" the engine yet. I did get the fuel line/primer bulb/fittings today, so I am ready to give it a go. However, since I have no way of knowing which lube is in the lower unit, I'm going to drain and refill with the proper Type C as you mentioned.

Sig Saur...you indicate I have the wrong control box, yet when I looked at that ebay listing, it appears virtually identical to mine, save for cosmetics and mine doesn't have the ignition switch mounted to the box. So I must ask you to clarify, is there something on the inside of that box that is electrically/mechanically different from mine? And thanks for the testing of solenoid procedure. Does the engine have to be running before I can do the jumper test to check for solenoid activity?

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Yes the push button shift switches are different internally. If you look inside your current control box the switch has three wires running to it. If you look inside the proper control box the shift switch is wired differently and has 5 wires that run to it. If you run a jumper without the engine running youshould hear the solenoids click in the lower unit. If you do that you dont need to worry about a ground wire as the solenoids themselves are grounded in the lower unit. I also believe having the wrong shift switch is why you arent getting proper voltage to the shift solenoids

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Sorry, I beg to differ....again. Let's get the record straight. There are two types of "electric" shift, taking two basic types of look-alike switches. The Hydroelectric shift switches are different internally than the straight electric shift switches. Multiply X2 for Johnson vs Evinrude controls (interchangeable)

As I said, "look-alike". Darned if I can tell the difference just by looking at a picture. You would have to do some electrical tests to tell.

Three-wire, vs five wire is not a test. The five wire switch came out in 1972, the two extra (white) wires are for start-in-neutral only. The three wire switch does not have that feature. All 1969 switches would be three-wire, be they Hydroelectic or otherwise. But a five-wire switch can be installed in the box, no problem.

Bottom line is don't get all excited about the switch before seeing whether or not it works. Even if it is the wrong switch, it will do no damage to the Hydroelectric system...just won't work right. But the wrong switch absolutely WILL damage an electric shift, however the problem does not exist in this case.

The Hydroelectric has an oil pump inside that does the actual shifting. The oil pump cannot work unless rotating, so the shift will default to forward gear when not running.

Anybody confused yet?

Hey, these things fed and clothed my family back in "the day".

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

F_R is correct in that they won't shift without the engine cranking.

However if the solenoids are good you will hear them click when you put 12volts to them, they won't shift but you will hear them attempt to activate. If they are bad you will hear nothing. Regardless of wether or not it shifts if you put 12 volts to those wires you should hear the solenoids attempt to activate.

If you aren't getting voltage to the green and blue wire, it leads me to believe one of two things either an improper switch or a malfunctioning switch.

Basically the lower unit won't shift without cranking because the solenoids control the flow of gear oil through the oil pump.

I am basically just giving a round about idea if heard something I might consider proceeding, if I heard no clicking from the solenoids when applying voltage I would consider it dead and move on.

The engine does not have to be running to hear the solenoids attempting to activate, though if it isn't running they absolutely will not shift the lower unit.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

You guys have given me much information, and I continue to appreciate it. I believe that F_R is correct in this case. The controls I have came with the engine, including the ignition switch. The wiring harness that is attached to the engine (pics 1 & 2) has a connecter with four wires in it, 2 of which are shared power (purple). the other two are controls (green & blue) Pics 3 & 4 are attached to the control box with red (power) inside and blue/green. I mounted the ignition and auto choke and overheat idiot light on a panel for ease of use. The only thing that is missing from the wiring harness is the three wires for the power trim. The engine has an electric motor on it with a harness coming from it that has three terminals, but there are no extra wires coming from the engine wiring harness. I studied the electrical schematic, and all of the available wires have been accounted for. I have seen other boats with a dash mounted panel that has three big rubber push buttons in it. I'm guessing that's the part I'm missing.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

I dragged the control box and a battery into the house and did some testing of the control box with a multimeter. I wrote everything down as I did it. Now you guys can tell me if these numbers make sense.

With 12 volts applied continuously to the red terminal in the box and the box grounded to the battery directly:

Neutral engaged, Green terminal 12v / Blue terminal Zero volts

Forward engaged, Green terminal Zero volts / Blue terminal Zero volts

Reverse engaged, Green terminal 12v / Blue terminal 12v

So if this control box switch is working correctly, does that mean 12v to green makes one solenoid choose neutral, and 12v to green and blue simultaneously make both solenoids choose reverse?

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

You got it right, and that is the correct switch. A better test would have had the box all connected to the motor so the shift switch actually are energizing the solenoids. That would load the circuit and point out any high resistances. But let's not get too complicated with this thing. Unless you have high resistance in the switch contacts, you are good to go.

Yes you figured it out correctly. Green is neutral, both green and blue at the same time is reverse. No connections to anything is forward (default).
Simple, huh?

The power trim is an accessory kit, therefor not shown on the main wiring diagram

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Thanks once again F_R! I am yanking the carbs right now and preparing for dis-assembly and a good soaking. I want to do this right the first time.

Should I replace the whole water pump assembly for good measure, or just the impeller?

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

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[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Well, I may have answered my own question about float, needle and seat purchases. I think these carbs have been rebuilt in the recent past because the floats are plastic, and the needles look like new. Also, the gaskets came off easy and in one piece. I think this is just a simple case of varnished carbs. With a cleaning and new gaskets, she should run smooth as silk.

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Make sure you get those high speed orifice plugs absolutely, positively CLEAN without at trace of any of that goo in them. But don't go jamming drills and stuff through them, oversize is nearly as bad as undersize.

The floats were the black plastic material when the motor was brand new.

Personally, I'd open the water pump and inspect it before ordering parts. If it still has the old aluminum housing, I'd order the complete plastic pump with stainless liners. But if it already has the plastic pump, all you need is a new impeller. The original (aluminum) pumps cooked many a motor.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Great advice and info F_R...thanks!

I put 12v directly to the blue/green wires leading into the lower unit to listen for the solenoids making noise, but I heard nothing but the crackle of the spark coming off the wires whenever I touched them with the juice. Should I really be able to hear the solenoids trying to move inside the lower unit? I personally don't believe that I would be able to hear such a tiny electric motor make a sound through the gear case, but again...I have never done this before. If it matters at all, there is resistance at each lead separately, and together. I don't know what info if any I can glean from the resistance measures though, as the numbers were swinging wildly between 10 and 30 ohms. Please advise.

 

[SigSaurP229]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Great advice and info F_R...thanks!

I put 12v directly to the blue/green wires leading into the lower unit to listen for the solenoids making noise, but I heard nothing but the crackle of the spark coming off the wires whenever I touched them with the juice. Should I really be able to hear the solenoids trying to move inside the lower unit? I personally don't believe that I would be able to hear such a tiny electric motor make a sound through the gear case, but again...I have never done this before. If it matters at all, there is resistance at each lead separately, and together. I don't know what info if any I can glean from the resistance measures though, as the numbers were swinging wildly between 10 and 30 ohms. Please advise.

I am sure fr will beg to differ but in the last 8 years I worked on 5 of these lower units. I could always hear the click of the solenoid attempting to move when energized. It isnt the motor you will hear its the solenoid hitting the lower unit.

The only other way to know for sure is to energize the wire while cranking. The lower solenoid tends to be a little more prone to failure. and you have the earlier style solenoids. which are alittle harder to find Q

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

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[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

Sig, nope I'm not going to differ on the matter. Listening for the click isn't my preferred test method, but I don't find fault with it either. I agree, the only way to make sure EVERYTHING is working is to try it under actual running conditions. There is much more involved in the system than just the solenoids.

Silly, the resistance should be 5-8 ohms on a suitable range setting of your multimeter. That is between each wire and ground, individually. Your 10 ohm reading is probably very close to being the true reading. Meters vary as does the reliability of connections.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the solenoid plungers rest upon the levers in the oil pump (by gravity). So there is very little movement if any when energizing them. I do suppose there would be some wiggle to them though. Oil pressure is what holds the balls off the seats when running but not energized. The earlier versions had springs to lift the plungers and there was more movement in those.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

I just read a post about carb rebuilds, and realized that those core plugs are meant to be replaced. The question I have is...what if anything is under those core plugs? Do I need to take them out before the carbs get soaked?

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

The idle fuel ports are below those core plugs. 9 times out of 10, they are not dirty and not to be concerned. However, with the build-up of crud in your carburetors, I wouldn't be surprised at anything. Be careful removing them, you can do serious and unrepairable damage to the carburetor body if punching too deep to remove them.

 

[Silly Seville]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

The idle fuel ports are below those core plugs. 9 times out of 10, they are not dirty and not to be concerned.

If that is a sealed area, how does junk get in or out if the core plugs remain in place?

I took out the machine screws from either side of the bowls, but didn't attempt to take out the orifice plug. Does it need to come out to properly service the carb?

 

[F_R]

Re: Is an ancient Johnson 85 V4 worth the effort?

True they don't come with a kit. I always remove them, but then again, I have the special screwdriver to do it. Trying to do it without the s/driver usually buggers them up. In theory, it isn't necessary to remove them, but it sure does make it a lot easier to see if they are clean or not.