Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

[deerhuntre]

I purchased a 19' 1986 fish and ski that I discovered leaks. The seller never told me about the leaks and I was very surprised at the condition of the rivets when I first took delivery of the boat. Anyhow, after 30 minutes in the water I have about three inches of water in the boat when looking at the stern.

I would like opinions: Am I being unreasonable to hold the seller accountable for not disclosing this information?

I'm considering pursuing the seller for money or to negate the sale based on this fact. Or am I being unreasonable and I should just perform any necessary repairs and enjoy the boat?

Other than the leaks and the really shoddy and messy repairs that someone else already attempted (that I mucked up a bit mroe with Sikaflex 291), I really like the boat.

I look forward to your thoughts....

 

[bouttime007]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

If it was a dealer Id think about checking into it more, but a private sale you take your lumps on occasion. If its fixed and it was cheap,enjoy it as much as humanly possible Id say. Welcome here.

 

[Aquaman]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

I purchased a 19' 1986 fish and ski that I discovered leaks. The seller never told me about the leaks and I was very surprised at the condition of the rivets when I first took delivery of the boat. Anyhow, after 30 minutes in the water I have about three inches of water in the boat when looking at the stern.

I would like opinions: Am I being unreasonable to hold the seller accountable for not disclosing this information?

I'd need a more detailed account of the transaction to offer an opinion. I assume you didn't launch before buying. Did you discuss your concerns about the rivets with the seller? Did you ask if it had any leaks? Did the seller say it DIDN'T leak or that he didn't know one way or the other?

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

The seller was a dealer.

It was an eBay purchase and I asked lots of questions before purchasing. I always ask about the motor, leaks, guages, floor condition, and whatever else I can think of at the time. The seller did not answer all my questions; only some of them. He told me he didn't know if the guages worked, and the floor was solid. He told me the motor ran great. However, the seller did not say anything one way or the other about the leaks or the rivets. Maybe its possible I didn't ask if the boat leaks, but every boat I've ever looked at online I ask the leak question.

Anyhow, I did question the seller the other day about the leaks and he told me "he was honest and up-front about a few leaking rivets". But I have no knowledge of this information and was completely surprised when I saw the rivets. I would think I would have known if I was told about leaking rivets and would not have purchased the boat under those conditions. The seller at some point told me he's been trying to sell the boat for a year, so maybe he thought he told me about the rivets? Maybe he told lots of people and simply thought he told me?

The purchase was in February so I couldn't launch. When I completed the transaction the seller was not present, an employee was there to handle the paperwork. It was at that time that I saw that about half of the hull rivets had epoxy or silicone on them. I became quite concerned, but the seller was not available. I had made arrangements to pick up the boat several days in advance, so the seller certainly knew when I was going to be there.

Thank you for your effort with helping me figure out where I stand. Please let me know if there are areas I can provide more details if necessary.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

It sounds a little suspicious to me. I would have at least expected him to note that some of the rivets had been sealed or repaired. Did any of the silicone repairs show in the pics on eBAy?
I would also take into account the total cost, if you got it cheap, then I wouldn't be too concerned, but if you paid top dollar for a boat with problems that the seller obviously knew about then I would be a bit upset.
I would also take into account the age of the boat.

Myself, I pretty much assume that any older riveted hull will have some leaks, what I don't want to see is an amature repair. I just went to look at an older Starcraft which the owner told me was in excellent condition but had a few leaky rivets. Since the boat was over 45 years old a few rivet problems didn't concern me. What got me upset was that when I got there I found a 16" gouge and a really bad weld job that had been pasted over with about 10 tubes of silicone. The silicone wasn't even old enough to be fully cured and the owner played dumb saying he never knew it was there, right after he told me that the boat was in his family since new.
I had driven 3 hours to see it and it turned out to be a total wreck, the transom was rotted and just fiberglassed over, the rotted floors were just covered up with fresh plywood, and every wire in the boat was ripped out.
The boat he described was nothing like the piece of junk I looked at.
It looked to me like someone had hit something sharp, then tried to weld it not knowing anything about aluminum and burned a huge hole in the hull, then covered it up with silicone hoping to off it. I was so mad when I saw it I just turned around and left, never said a word. The seller had bragged up how clean and mint the boat was, he may very well have thought so, since it was the nicest boat in his yard. There was a fiberglass boat sitting next to it that had a 2x3' piece of plywood screwed to the side with the same white silicone squashed out all around and it looked to be secured with drywall screws. He reffered to that as his baby and said that since he found that, he didn't need the aluminum boat, and had taken the motor from the aluminum boat for the other boat.
I truely got the impression that he was that clueless, but the repair was obviously a coverup and that's what got me so mad. I wouldn't have been nearly as mad if he had said that the hull needed repair or that he had patched a hole. He instead totally avoided it and never said a word. It wasn't like it wasn't obvious, it was plainly visable from the side and at the water line. I would have probably gone and looked anyhow, but still would never have bought it once I saw the mess he made.

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

That's unbelievable, imported_reelfishin!! But maybe because of all the different types of people in the world, some of the people just are not that smart. I mean, you did say the boat you were looking at was the nicest of the collection! And the defects you describe make mine seem much nicer. But I agree about the amateurish repairs and I posted in a different area here about how to remove the silicone and epoxy (and my cover-up hasty sikaflex job)

Anyhow, I paid $1800 which I don't think is top dollar, nor bottom bargain, dont' you think?. The trailer is a really nice roller, but I have to bleed the water out of the master cylinder. The motor is a Mercury inline 6 115 that seems good but I'm also not done testing. I want to make sure I'm getting spark and all cylinders are firing. The photo's were not very clear and had too much contrast. I just took a look again at the ad's photo's and do see some splotches on the hull under the bow in one of the pictures, but the image is not very clear and very hard to see. I guess maybe I could have noticed them and asked, but they blend in on the photo enough that I originally didn't notice and only now that I know they're there see them clearly. There were lots of misspellings in the ad and the wording made me wonder if the seller may be not that smart.

So, I suppose I can't expect a totally dry hull but the leaks are pretty fast too. I do see lots of 20 year old boats that are claimed to be dry. I know I’d be less annoyed if there wasn't such a mess under the hull. Maybe later today when I return from fishing I'll post a photo.

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

The absolutely worst thing you can do is buy a boat sight-unseen off of eBay! The horror stories are Legion! You pays your money and you takes your chances. Let the BUYER beware!

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

i have bought and sold boats and motors on ebay. you take the good with the bad. it's just the chance you take. if they don't answer the question ask again. if they avoid the point, dance around it. you move to the next item on your list. sorry, buddy it's your boat now. you should have never taken possession. if you had, filed a paypal claim, prior to possession as misrepresented, you might have a leg to stand on.

 

[John_S]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

Review your old ebay msgs to see if leaks were discussed. Even if they were, I think you are at the mercy of the dealer. I'd at least ask for a refund, but not to expect a positive reply. Hope you gave him negative feedback to help the next guy.

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

It doesn't sound like you got too bad of a deal; a trailer with brakes and roller bunks and a working 115HP. It sucks that you have some leaks, but rivets in an aluminum hull won't be too hard to fix. Hopefully you like the boat. With a little care and patience, you can fix it up and have a really nice ride!​

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

I do like the boat a lot. It's the largest size I can tow with my vehichle and it's the hull design I wanted to salmon fish on Lake Michigan. As long as its safe I'm happy, so if I can fix the leaks somewhat then I suppose it should be fine. I mean, for $1800 its not the hugest amount of money or a really big deal.

So is there a reasonable amount of money I can 'ask' for or do you guys think even with the leaks the price is fair?

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

bite the bullet, and fix it. i have 2 totally indepentant bilge pumps in my boat, on separate batteries, and thru hull fittings, one is manual with just switch on the dash, the other is the 2 way auto or manual, with switch on dash. i did it because i have some leaking rivets.

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking this is going to have to be the case.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

A dealer.... I would ask for the following.......

First complete repair and gas money then negotaiate from there. If they are a true dealer they will give in a bit.

Blind rivets kinda costly - he should absorb that.
2 quart cans of gluvit - he should absorb that too.
Ask what his labor rate is and how much for a repair job...... then ask for that money too.
He sold you a faulty leaking boat that jeopardized the safety of you and your family. What is you had been miles away on the water and it broke down...... who would be bailing out the water or sinking - You would.

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

Excellent, Bob_VT. Thank you very much. This gives me a very good idea of where to start.

I will post the outcome once this matter is resolved.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

I'm with Bob. A dealer selling a boat that doesn't stay afloat? And a boat that will be used on Lake Michigan. You got about 15 minutes of survival time once you hit the water regardless of season.

I would be slapping this fool around for failure to disclose. I think you are entitled to a refund or repair.

 

[cbavier]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

I agree with you all and you have given Deerhuntre some good advice. Two things I noticed though that were missed and you will have to consider how you handle this.

On Ebay you as a Buyer rate the seller. If he doesn't settle fairly or deliver as promised. You can write him up and give him a negative rating. That's the first thing I always check and read the comments on the seller before bidding. If his rating is not in 95% bracket or up ...STEER CLEAR!


The other thing EBAY has a recourse action against sellers that cheat or mis- represent the products they sell and EBAY can take legal action.

So what I'm saying is give the dealer an opportunity to make it right and if they refuse. Then you can take the next steps through EBAY. If it were a lot of money you could take legal action but since it's such a small amount it probably isn't worth the cost of an Attorney.

Give the Dealer an opportunity to make it right first without threatening.

 

[deerhuntre]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

Thank you everyone. My plan is to first contact the seller asking for the cost of the repairs and to let him know that if I need to file in small claims (which is not a big deal and is easy for me to do) I will seek the full amount paid, plus all costs and fees. However, before actually filing anything, I'll pursue the eBay recourse and the special rule for credit card purchases recourse via chargeback/dispute.

Since it's not a lot of money, it's not the end of the world. But I have a wife and child and the though of sinking on the big lake is really unbearable. That is my motivation for really being unhappy with this seller!

Again, thank you everyone and I will certainly post the outcome once completed.

 

[Rob454]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

,a private sale you take your lumps on occasion. .

Thats BS IMO. If the seller fails to disclose something wrong with the boat then its fraud. period end of story. When i sell something I tell the people everything about it show them the repair or log and then I let them make up their own minds. Thats the problem. Everyone thinks well its a used XYZ so if I sell it it becomes the buyers problem. What they dont realise is that even if its the buyers problem its still their problem. yeah it becomes a he said she said but i woudl still take him to court. Hell small calims is cheap and for no other reason than to make the sellers life miserable jsut liek he made mine by trying to BS me,The thing is not to buy anything without having it professionally checked out. ( i made that mistake 2x in my life. once with a partener and the second time with this bayliner I bougth and I didnt follow my own advice but I fixed it and the seller had nothing do do with the problem it had) if the seller balks walk away as fast as you can. Ive bougth and sold plenty of cars and machinery and I know when someone is trying to hide something. I ask people all sorts of questions. then a little bit later ask them the same thing see if the story changes.
Im not a sue happy person but if I feel I was wronged i definately make myself heard. the few times i did go to court the people called me back and gave me my $$ back to avoid court

 

[Aquaman]

Re: Is it reasonable to expect a seller to disclose leaks?

Thats BS IMO. If the seller fails to disclose something wrong with the boat then its fraud. period end of story.

But deerhuntre doesn't even know for sure if he asked before the sale.

Maybe its possible I didn't ask if the boat leaks, but every boat I've ever looked at online I ask the leak question.

He asked after purchase

Anyhow, I did question the seller the other day about the leaks and he told me "he was honest and up-front about a few leaking rivets".

deerhuntre doesn't come right out and say he was defrauded he says he has no knowledge

But I have no knowledge of this information

Could it be he simply doesn't remember? No small detail but it is possible.

The seller admits leaks now after the sell

he told me "he was honest and up-front about a few leaking rivets".

But did he deny any leaks before the sale?

The seller was a dealer.

the seller did not say anything one way or the other about the leaks or the rivets.

Bottom line...No written contract, no sea trial, no case. Fix it, enjoy it, and remember this the next time you buy a used boat.