Is it safe to run after seizing?

[GlasV162]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

No, they weren't aware of metal pieces immediately after it seized up, and neither was I. Right after t seized, the tech met me back at the lake to have a look at the motor, but he didn't remove the spark plugs. He just ran it--and advised me to do the same.

The metal filings on the spark plug were discovered a few days later when I brought the motor back to the shop for a compression check. It was then that they removed the plugs and found metal filings on the bottom starboard spark plug. Both the tech and shop owner told me to keep running the motor.

 

[HybridMX6]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

The metal filings on the spark plug were discovered a few days later when I brought the motor back to the shop for a compression check. It was then that they removed the plugs and found metal filings on the bottom starboard spark plug. Both the tech and shop owner told me to keep running the motor.

Yikes! I can't believe they would say that. I'm no mechanic, but I know seeing metal in the cylinder is NOT a good thing, and it's not going to just clear itself up, it's just going to eat away more metal at this point.

 

[Shizzy]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

your comment about three cylinders were honed and one bored raises a red flag with me. the only people who do this are cheap people and cheap/shady repair shops. why was the one cylinder bored in the first place? Im sure they got the fit of the cyl and the new piston wrong (common on all types of engines) and now that cylinder is horribly damaged. is there a parts breakdown on your invoice? there should be a new piston listed. if there isnt, they stuck the old one back in the new oversized hole or didnt bore that one cylinder at all.

get any and all documentation you can, maybe record a phone conversation if thats legal in your state. and again, dont give this shop another cent.

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

what kind of warranty did you get on the repairs?

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

There is nothing wrong with boring just one cylinder to repair an engine. The manufacture's themselve's OK this. The repair work on this engine was beyond the skill level of the people doing the work. For an engine to sieze, the piston has to expand to the point it is to tight to fit the cylinder bore, this rip's metal from the piston, rings', and cylinder walls'. Once this happen's, the damage is done, and can only get worse by continued running. No exsperienced mechanic would advise doing this. Has anyone seen the movie, "Slingblade"? Do you remember the mechanic, Scooter? He work's for this shop.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

The warranty was for 1 year. However, I've consulted with an attorney and he has told me I'm well within the statute of limitations--regardless of any warranty. The bottom line is the job wasn't done right the first time. The owner of the shop knows he screwed up. We had good communications this past fall--until he received a demand letter from my attorney. Now he's blowing me off.
I used the boat very little last season due to time constraints, but when I did use it, the motor's performance got progressively worse--hard to start after warming up, wouldn't idle, heavy smoking for a 2 stroke. I stopped at the shop last fall to buy hull cleaner; the owner asked me how the motor was running, and when I told him it still wasn't running right, his response was, "I'm sorry to hear that." That's it--not "Bring it in and we'll take another look at it and make it right." This guy really takes pride in his work!!

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Based on what you described so far, I'd love to see what the inside of that motor looks like. I've overhauled many, many engines, both auto and marine over the years, and never had a fresh rebuild seize up. If built to spec, you just don't see those problems.

What was the original reason for an overhaul?
How long did it sit last season?
How much running time is actually on the rebuilt, before it seized?
Is it still running the original VRO pump?
If you are premixing fuel, how to do keep track of the mix or figure the ratio?
(Does your boat have a built in tank or do you run portable tanks?)
Was the fuel checked in the tank at the time of the last overhaul?
Do you have a water separator in the fuel supply line?

The fact that only one cylinder was bored, is suspect but not really wrong. If I was rebuilding a motor for myself, I'd most likely bore all 4 the same and start with brand new specs and new pistons. All bored and fitted to factory specs. I have to wonder why they would not go that route on a motor they have to guarantee? I wouldn't give a customer the option to cheap out and do a partial fix, either fix it 100% or take it elsewhere.

What were you charged for the overhaul?
What parts were itemized?

 

[GlasV162]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Original reason for rebuild: I lost 1/4 of a ring, which I was told was due to water intrusion caused by a faulty exhaust cover gasket.

The boat was in the water most of last season, but mostly on the mooring. Due to time constraints, I didn't use it much--less than 5 hours.

Total running time since the rebuild is approx. 20 hours.

VRO pump was found faulty by another shop and replaced in '05. When it seized, the shop that did the rebuild immediately blamed the VRO, but did nothing to verify whether or not it was working. After it seized, they removed the VRO and replaced it with a used fuel-only pump they had in the shop.

I use portable 6-gal. tanks, so getting the accurate mixture is no problem. Fuel was checked (fresh) when I picked the boat up after the rebuild. At that time the shop told me to run premix and VRO to make sure VRO was working. I marked the side of the oil tank and it was using the correct amount of oil.

After the motor seized, the shop installed a water separating fuel filter. Once again, they told me the same thing--"Run it. The damaged cylinder will smooth itself out."

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Is it possible this shop tells you to keep running it in hope that the motor self destructs, then they'll say you abused the engine during it's break-in period?
I don't know but the sooner you get it resoved the better.

 

[billy4hp]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Original reason for rebuild: I lost 1/4 of a ring, which I was told was due to water intrusion caused by a faulty exhaust cover gasket.

The boat was in the water most of last season, but mostly on the mooring. Due to time constraints, I didn't use it much--less than 5 hours.

Total running time since the rebuild is approx. 20 hours.

VRO pump was found faulty by another shop and replaced in '05. When it seized, the shop that did the rebuild immediately blamed the VRO, but did nothing to verify whether or not it was working. After it seized, they removed the VRO and replaced it with a used fuel-only pump they had in the shop.

I use portable 6-gal. tanks, so getting the accurate mixture is no problem. Fuel was checked (fresh) when I picked the boat up after the rebuild. At that time the shop told me to run premix and VRO to make sure VRO was working. I marked the side of the oil tank and it was using the correct amount of oil.

After the motor seized, the shop installed a water separating fuel filter. Once again, they told me the same thing--"Run it. The damaged cylinder will smooth itself out."

There is just no such thing as a self healing engine.... Scarey the "shop" thinks otherwise...

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

There is just no such thing as a self healing engine.... Scarey the "shop" thinks otherwise...

I can't say what the shop's motive is, but like said before above, a motor won't 'heal' itself. Lost metal is lost metal. If your seeing metal in a cylinder, then something is wrong, and the cause of that is to be determined. Either way, I'd not keep running that motor and there's no way I'd trust that shop.

They sound more like a bunch of junkyard guys than marine techs. I wonder if they used any other used parts? Are you certain that the power head you have is even your original one?

I'd not put anything past them at this point. The damage is done and it must come apart to find where that metal came from.
What does bother me a bit is that it ran for 10 hours in that condition. I would think that if it were a tight piston fit, or misfitted part, it would have turned up within the first hour of running. Being that it took 10 hours of running for it to get bad enough to notice power loss or metal makes me wonder what else is wrong or what changed from the first few hours to now.
I would think that if the motor was misbuilt, built too tight, or mismachined, it would have seized or knocked soon after the first warm up or wide open throttle run.
You need to do a compression check, see what you have, I suspect that you've lost most or all compression in one cylinder, if there's metal floating around in that motor, then there could be other damage as well.
(Metal flakes on the spark plugs will foul them, making the motor drop that cylinder).
Also, how did you determine it was the Starboard lower cylinder that was causing the engine to be seized?

 

[HybridMX6]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

VRO pump was found faulty by another shop and replaced in '05. When it seized, the shop that did the rebuild immediately blamed the VRO, but did nothing to verify whether or not it was working. After it seized, they removed the VRO and replaced it with a used fuel-only pump they had in the shop.

I use portable 6-gal. tanks, so getting the accurate mixture is no problem. Fuel was checked (fresh) when I picked the boat up after the rebuild. At that time the shop told me to run premix and VRO to make sure VRO was working. I marked the side of the oil tank and it was using the correct amount of oil.

Huh? You say they removed the VRO and put in a fuel-only pump in '05, yet you also say this recent shop who rebuilt the motor said to run the vro and also pre-mix? Is the VRO still active or not? If the shop put in a "Fuel-only" pump, the VRO is doing nothing, so if that's the case, where is that oil going?

I'd still suspect the shop did not chamfer the ports, and that's why it took 10 hours for this problem to arise. I'm thinking the ring caught the egde of the cylinder and broke apart, tore up the cylinder, and now it's done too much damage and the cylinder has either low compression or none at all.

I do agree with others, STOP running the motor now! It sounds like they are hoping you will throw a rod, demolish the motor, and then blame it on you for abusing it, getting them off the hook for the cost of another rebuild. You need to try to get them to fix it for free under warranty, or get them to foot the bill for another shop to fix it. I wouldn't trust them to do it again, but they may be more willing to do this than pay another shop to do it. Or, just get your money back, if you can. You may need to find a way to record a conversation with them telling you to keep running it, if it's legal to do so.

 

[jonesg]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

You could take it to a shop with a certified tech and have them document the work done. Give it to your lawyer.
Make all correspondence in writing from now on.
They might be dumb enough to put something in writing you can hang em with.

 

[GlasV162]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

The VRO pump was found to be faulty by another shop in '05, and replaced with another new VRO pump at that time.

The shop that I paid to do the rebuild in '07 removed the VRO pump after the motor seized, and replaced it with a used fuel-only pump they had in the shop.

The shop determined that it was the bottom starboard cylinder that seized because that's where the metal filings were. The spark plug from that cylinder was covered with them.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

If I am understanding this correctly, you had a VRO pump failure in 2005 and had a new one installed. The shop that did that work advised you to both premix and run the VRO system, until you were sure the VRO was working properly. You did that and determined that the VRO was working.

Later on, the engine blew a piston and you went to the rebuilder that is being discussed here. He rebuilt the motor and put a used, fuel only pump in the motor.

The question at this point is, did he tell you to run premix only, once the VRO pump was removed? If so, did you run the proper premix ratio? If you didn't, its not surprising that the engine blew. In fact, it is surprising that only one piston blew.

I feel like there is some bit of information that we don't have. That said, for any mechanic to tell you that your motor will "smooth a cylinder out," after signs that the motor siezed, is ludicris.

 

[reelfishin]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

It sounds to me like the removed the VRO after is seized, and told him from that point on to run premix. That move alone, considering that the VRO pump wasn't that old, sounds to me like they don't know this motor.

Was this an actual shop or dealer or someone that fixes boats on the side?

I still find it hard to believe that any dealer or trained tech would tell anyone that a seized cylinder which was making metal would smooth out.

I guess this is just one more reason to do your own work.

I had a buddy who bought a 9.9 Johnson, a late 80's motor at a yard sale, he dropped it off at a local dealer so they could determine it's condition and get it running. They put a new fuel pump in and told him it was like new. They charged him nearly $300. The motor died the first time out, he brought it by the house, it had no compression in one cylinder, and two rusty spark plugs. The water pump was not new, not even a new impeller. He still had the reciept from the dealer in his wallet. I told him to take it back, they took it, and a week later told him it was all fixed, and that the float had stuck.
No word about the low compression was mentioned. They demonstrated the motor in the tank and he left with it. It barely ran on the boat in the water. I again rechecked the compression, still one dead hole, and still two rusty plugs. When he took it back again, they told him he must of been running it without oil, and that it needs a complete overhaul. My guess is that the motor was beat from day one when he bought it, but they just wanted to get what they could out of him, knowing that he'd never put out the cash to fix it. I finally tore the motor down, the lower cylinder's rings were stuck, rusted solid, the head was corroded through, and the carb float had been smeared with some sort of glue or sealer to fix a bad float. The motor was badly salt damaged and not worth fixing. He had taken it there to see if it was worth spending any money on it, they turned what would have been a $50 loss into a $350 loss for him. That was a dealer.

I can only imagine what goes on elsewhere. It's tough to find a good, knowledgeable tech when it comes to outboards, it seems that they are either clueless or out to scam you for your cash or motor.

I know of only one or two that are decent, and the main problem there is that their labor rate is totally unaffordable to most people. An hours labor pretty much exceeds the value of most older motors.

 

[OldJohnson6hp]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

""smooth itself out" with continued running"


WTF? Is this an actual shop? Thats unreal.

 

[Mike2076]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Hello. i sure hate your problem.They are right dont let him within a 100 feet of your engine,if you dont have the tools to check it out yourself take it to another shop have it checked out and get a estimate and like they said above let your last so called mech. foot the bill if it is something he did/didnt do.but watch yourself,like they said about that all night dentist.Good luck

 

[GlasV162]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

Hello,

Jay Merrill--

The VRO pump was replaced in '05 with a brand new VRO pump. It was tested and worked properly.

In '07, I took the motor to the shop being discussed here (not an OMC shop) for a rebuild (reason for rebuild described earlier in this post). This shop told me to keep the VRO connected, but advised me to run premixed gas / oil in addition to the VRO for the first 2 to 3 tanks of gas, to ensure the VRO was working, which I did. Once we determined the VRO was working, at the shop's advice, I stopped mixing oil with the gas. With less than 10 hrs. of use on the rebuilt motor, it seized. The shop immediately blamed the VRO.

They replaced the VRO with the used fuel-only pump after the motor seized, and after they found the metal filings on the bottom starboard cylinder. They told me to keep running it with premixed gas / oil, and the damaged cylinder would "smooth itself out."

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Is it safe to run after seizing?

I think the bottom line is that you are dealing with idiots. I would stay away from them from this point on, except for whatever action you need to take to get your money back.

My gut reaction to this is that the latest shop never determined why the motor blew. They merely rebuilt the powerhead and assumed all else was OK, which it obviously was not. I also have to wonder what made them take the VRO pump off and replace it with a fuel only pump. Did they say why? Did they make any mention of suspected problems with the VRO pump?

BTW - did they give you the VRO pump that they took off of the motor? I guess I am wondering if they are trying to hide something.


PS: I just noticed that you had the motor rebuilt in 2007. That being the case, what did you do to preserve the condition of the carbs during the long periods of time in which you did not run the motor? All it would take for this situation to happen, is for a cylinder to be run lean due to a clogged HS jet. The mechanics are still idiots for telling you to keep running it, but you bear responsibility for keeping the engine in a suitable condition.