Is my starter bad?

[trobinson017]

Ok. I'm moving down my list of boat tasks and have gotten to the weak starting issue. I've read a bunch of threads on this forum and have:

1. removed and cleaned all battery connections and starter connections. Applied dielectric grease to all contact points.

2. inspected all wiring for nicks, inspected all terminal connections and replaced a few that were suspect.

3. replaced all sparkplugs (gapped correctly).

4. used a jumper cable from positive battery terminal to positive starter post. The starter weakly turned but wouldn't fully spin the flywheel.

I can say the starting of the motor has gotten progressively weaker over the past 6 months. After every change above it seemed to improve but not for long. It's to the point now that even using my starter booster pack (50 amps) which is part of my charger can't get it to turn robustly which it was able to do in the past when I had a weak battery.

Interesting, tho, with two fully charged batteries when I turn the key the starter tries to get the flywheel to move but it's weak (whump.............whump.............whump) then all the sudden it cranks up fully and I can sometimes get the engine started. Not always, sometimes.

So is my starter going bad or should I continue to investigate other causes?

TIA!!!

 

[JB]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Yup. Sounds like a failing starter to me.

I would pull her down and inspect the brushes. Could be worn out or could have a weakened spring.

Would help if we knew the make and model of your engine.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Is my starter bad?

an alternator/starter shop can rebuild your present starter for much less than a new one. this is depending on the model of your motor.

 

[DJ]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Did you clean the battery connections at the ENGINE end? Especially the ground on the engine block?

 

[trobinson017]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Did you clean the battery connections at the ENGINE end? Especially the ground on the engine block?

Just curious, DJ, but wouldn't connecting a jumper cable directly from battery post to starter post rule out bad/dirty cables? BTW, I did check and everything looks good at both ends. I tried the jumper cable test again today and same result.

This made me think, tho, do I need to lubricate the flywheel at all? Ever?

 

[trobinson017]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Yup. Sounds like a failing starter to me.

I would pull her down and inspect the brushes. Could be worn out or could have a weakened spring.

Would help if we knew the make and model of your engine.

Per my sig, it's a Johnson 130 Oceanpro.

Thanks!

 

[trobinson017]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Another tidbit: I read on another website to test the voltage drop from battery to starter using a voltmeter and to test voltage at the starter itself. I put the red lead onto my battery pos terminal and the black lead to the starter pos terminal (according to the website) and had my wife turn the key (spark disabled). The voltage read at 10.27v which the website said should be good (at least 9.5v). I then put the postive lead onto the positive post on the starter and the negative on the starter casing. Wife turned key and the voltage started at 9.99 then dropped to 7.5 for the next couple cranks then dropped to like .004-.007. Two of these tests returned pretty much the same values. The starter itself did the weak whump........whump.........whump thing, just barely turning the flying.

So should I have the starter serviced or continue to investigate?

 

[McGvr]

Re: Is my starter bad?

I Worked at an auto electric shop for 10 years, rebuild lots of marine starter.

As far a oil goes, be careful not to get any in the drive clutch.(this is bad)
You tried jumper cables directly from the battery, are they good quality or el cheapo's? Do the cables get hot? does the starter sound like it's dragging?
Have you tested the battery? If the battery is shorted, you may still have problems even with a 50 amp booster.

Try a different battery (disconnect the old one). use a good set of jumper cables. make sure you have it well grounded and go directly to the starter.
If it does not work, chances are you have a bad stater.

Remove it and disassemble. ( DO NOT hit it with a hammer or drop it- If it has Magnet field you will break them)

1) check brushes and Springs
2) check Bushings( Look at the armature see if it has been dragging the fields)
3)Check the fields ( if WIRE fields check for short, if Magnets- Check for cracks)
4)Check the armature for shorts to ground Clean the commutator ( best way is to turn it (Cut) on a lathe ) {note you can not fully check the armature without a "growler" Auto electric shop can do this for you.

From what you've said so far it sounds like the starter. good news is they are not hard to fix.
Good Luck,
McG

 

[Jeff Walkowiak]

Re: Is my starter bad?

the voltage should not drop under a load like that.. you should ground the negative jumper to the engine and positive to the starter positive terminal,, disconnect the other battery just use the jump box and see what it does. do not use the existing engine wires, you could have a bad ground wire, is it soft ,or brittle when you bend it? if it's brittle it's probably bad.

 

[F_R]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Quote: "I put the red lead onto my battery pos terminal and the black lead to the starter pos terminal (according to the website) and had my wife turn the key (spark disabled). The voltage read at 10.27v which the website said should be good (at least 9.5v). "

This is a voltage drop test that you made across the positive battery cable and solenoid. It flunked the test!! In a perfect world it should be Zero volts. Since the world isn't perfect and the cables have normal resistance, the voltage shouldn't be over a volt or so for a normal reading, the lower the better. You have bad battery cables or solenoid or corroded connections. Take all the connections apart and clean them shiny bright, then retry. BTW, either you read the website wrong or they got it wrong.

Quote "I then put the postive lead onto the positive post on the starter and the negative on the starter casing. Wife turned key and the voltage started at 9.99 then dropped to 7.5 for the next couple cranks then dropped to like .004-.007. Two of these tests returned pretty much the same values. The starter itself did the weak whump........whump.........whump thing, just barely turning the flying.

This voltage should be around 11 volts. It flunked too. Probably for the same reason the first one flunked. Bad/corroded cables or solenoid causing a high resistance.

The other possibility would be a totally shorted starter motor. But before you condemn the starter, check the easy and obvious.

Ohm's Law relates the resistance to the voltage drop. across the + cables and solenoid. It isn't voo-doo, just established science.

 

[Jeff Walkowiak]

Re: Is my starter bad?

The way I was saying to connect the positive was to the starter not the solenoid meaning it will start as soon as you touch the cable end to the lug on the starter.. this bypasses the solenoid since those can go bad and make a bad connection internally.

 

[DJ]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Just curious, DJ, but wouldn't connecting a jumper cable directly from battery post to starter post rule out bad/dirty cables? BTW, I did check and everything looks good at both ends. I tried the jumper cable test again today and same result.

This made me think, tho, do I need to lubricate the flywheel at all? Ever?

Not necessarily. That's one side of the circuit. The ground is only as good as what it's attached to.

I'm just trying to save you a bunch of money.

 

[McGvr]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Sounds like you are trying to load test the battery, Good Idea.
To do a load test properly you should use a load tester set for the ampacity of the battery being tested. (Starters generally do not draw enough amps to accurratly test the battery) another problem with doing it this way is that if the starer is "dragging" it may draw to many amps and give a false "bad reading.

If the starter is not over drawing you can do a quasi test.

Make sure the battery is fully charged
1)Put your test leads (meter on volts) across the battery
2) turn motor over for 10 sec. or until the voltage drops off (which ever comes first) Watch for smoke coming from the starter-STOP if this happens.
3) the voltage should not drop below 10 volts.

If the volage drops below 10volts you either have a bad battery or your starter is drawing to many amps. (Kinda of a problem, your trying to test the battery with a "Suspect Bad Starter"

Best bet- Take your (fully Charged)battery to Auto Zone or some other place that has a load tester and load test the battery.

If the battery failed the "Starter Load test", but passes the Auto Zone load test, Then the starter is drawing to many amps. and needs to be repaired or replaced.


One last Note: If the Motor is binding, this will also cause the starter to draw to many amps and turn slow. ( Not likely, but possible)

McG

 

[F_R]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Going back to the beginning of this thread I notice you said you applied dielectric grease to all contact points.
"Dielectric" means it doesn't conduct electricity. You might want to rethink what you did.

 

[DJ]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Going back to the beginning of this thread I notice you said you applied dielectric grease to all contact points.
"Dielectric" means it doesn't conduct electricity. You might want to rethink what you did.

Didn't catch that one. Doh!

 

[trobinson017]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Going back to the beginning of this thread I notice you said you applied dielectric grease to all contact points.
"Dielectric" means it doesn't conduct electricity. You might want to rethink what you did.

I don't know why I typed that! I don't even have dielectric grease! weird. I coat all the battery connections with vaseline which I read helps to keep them from corroding.

I'm going to redo all the tests. I may even go ahead and replace some of the cables that had extensive rust on the terminal parts (which I cleaned using a dremel and sanding bit. bright and shiny now). I'm thinking the cables themselves might be rusted internally.

All the info on this thread is awesome and I'll try to do everything advised. I'm not too savvy when it comes to electrical stuff so some of the technical points are lost on me. I am trying to get educated on it tho.

So, thanks again to everyone for your advice and education!

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Is my starter bad?

"cables that have extensive rust on the terminal parts." do not conduct electricity well, they cause resistance, just dropping the power.

 

[DJ]

Re: Is my starter bad?

"cables that have extensive rust on the terminal parts." do not conduct electricity well, they cause resistance, just dropping the power.

Well, yah.

What is NOT said is more important as to what IS said.

Thanks TD.

Everybody wants to condemn a starter when the issue MAY BE a $2.50 connection.

I've NEVER actually replaced an outboard starter, afew drives-yes, but NOT a starter). I fixed many by renewing connections though. If I were dishonest, I could have charged ($$$) a starter. I'm not dishonest.

 

[McGvr]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Stop.
I'm really trying to save you some time and money here.

Before you start trouble shooting the wiring again, try this.

1)Disconnect your battery.

2)Get a "known GOOD" battery- the one in your car or truck will do, you don't even have to take it out.

3) Take a "Good Quality" set of jumper cables and go directly from the battery to the starter. (Maker sure you fine a good ground on the motor-the starter bracket should work well)

If the starter spins normally, continue looking at the wiring and solenoid.
If it does not spin normally, you have a starter problem.

Good Luck,
McG

 

[trobinson017]

Re: Is my starter bad?

Stop.
I'm really trying to save you some time and money here.

Before you start trouble shooting the wiring again, try this.

1)Disconnect your battery.

2)Get a "known GOOD" battery- the one in your car or truck will do, you don't even have to take it out.

3) Take a "Good Quality" set of jumper cables and go directly from the battery to the starter. (Maker sure you fine a good ground on the motor-the starter bracket should work well)

If the starter spins normally, continue looking at the wiring and solenoid.
If it does not spin normally, you have a starter problem.

Good Luck,
McG

That sounds like a good test but I will have to remove the battery from my vehicle. The boat is on a lift in the back, not trailered. I'll think about removing it tho to do this test.

Thanks!