Is our society getting TOO careful??

a70eliminator

Captain
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
3,762
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

Superviser Ken told Sally not to stick her head in the machine while it was running......
 

Maclin

Admiral
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
6,761
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

'Tis a litigious society we have built and allowed to flourish.
 

tx1961whaler

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
5,197
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

My sons are 4 and 7. When I was 7 I ran around the neighborhood, by myself or with other kids, all day long. As long as I was home for meals and before dark, my parents didn't care. Today my wife and I don't take our eyes off our kids for a minute, even in the backyard. It's a different world, and I'd rather err on the side of overprotective. But sometimes I wonder if we're delaying their development of self-reliance and independence.

A couple years back there was a big controversy about parents in New York who let their 9 year old take a subway trip by himself. They defended themselves by saying they felt society has gotten too overprotective, and their son should learn to take care of himself. I didn't agree with that-- I think I'd have a problem letting my kids ride the New York subway by themselves at age 19, let alone 9. But I could kind of understand their point of view.

We are too overprotective, because we hear every bit of sensational bad news from every corner of the country (and world) instantly. We also don't have a good sense of perspective and ability to rationally evaluate risk. Look up the statistics for true stranger abductions in the US. It is statistically very near zero. It will be someone you know, are related to, or are acquainted with that will harm your children. But even the risk of that pales in comparison to harm caused by car accidents, bicycle accidents, and other household mishaps. If you wanted your child to be safe, statistically you'd be much better off letting the child run around the neighborhood with his friends, (but not on a bike) and never ever let him get in a car. But we can rationally weigh the risks of putting the child in a car, with a relatively high statistical chance of severe injury, versus the benefits of riding in the car. We are familiar with cars, use them every day, and accept the risk. But it's not as easy to rationalize the risks of the boogie-man snatching and butchering our child, even though it's about as likely as lightning hitting you.
If we want to play that game, then the best advice would be this: kill your wife, right now. There is a pretty high chance that she'll be the one to harm your child, rather than the predatory pedophile that is lurking around every tree. Hard to think about, but Mommy and Daddy kill their kids much more often than Uncle Pervy ever did. That's why cops look at them first; they understand the odds.
Now don't even get me started on the chance of the average American getting hurt in a terrorist attack......horrible when it happens, but statistically zero in a nation of 600 million people when the crap happens every 10 years or so.
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,728
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

I hate to burst your bubble but we only have about 300 mil, not 600 mil people in this country.

But the rest of your post is true and they're good points. The media have sensationalized alot of stuff. Instead of simply saying a car crashed they say, "A car careened into oncoming traffic, narrowly missing a car filled with children from the local church and slammed into a lightpole ripping off the front bumper."

I mean c'mon, just say the car hit a pole. Good gosh. :rolleyes:
 

JRJ

Commander
Joined
Sep 11, 2001
Messages
2,992
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

Hit the nail on the head there mphy98.
And look at who gets most of the money in one most of those trials......"

There you have it.
 

mike64

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
1,042
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

...If we want to play that game, then the best advice would be this: kill your wife, right now....

uhhh, right. I thought you had some interesting things to say right up until that. What a ridiculous and flippant thing to say, tx1961whaler.

I understand how "statistically insignificant" it is that my kids could get kidnapped, or whatever. I made the point that maybe we're being overprotective. But like I said, I'd rather err on the side of caution. And I actually do feel safer with my kids in the care of my wife, or me, than in the company of strangers... go figure. Maybe I'm naive.

My story of me and the other kids in our neighborhood running around by ourselves changed by the time I was 12-- when someone kidnapped and killed 4 kids my age in our county (the Oakland County child killer). He was never caught. There are bad people out there. I'm not saying it's any worse than it ever was. But I think many of our generation is less innocent to it than our parents were.

Anyway, I don't think I'm going to take your "helpful" advice.
 

Tig

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
416
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

My company has some seemingly extreme policies, but they are a response to tragic accidents.
A company has to protect it's self from the weakest link. Now you have seen what this entails at HD.
I might smirk at seeing this spectacle at HD but I understand it. It's like the "don't walk under a ladder" superstition. I'm not superstitious myself, but when I'm the guy on the ladder I expect everyone else to be superstitious and stay the heck away.:)
 

FBPirate95

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
840
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

The problem, is the CYA, syndrome just as others have mentioned. Its a sad attempt to help protect an organization from lawsuit, and then gives everyone else a false sense of safety. I work in a very dangerous production environment, in which we must follow OSHA 1910 standards. The problem is that ever since OSHA was developed, companies have tried to over engineer safety potential out of the equation. Its impossible. Luckily there has been a realization that most accidents are caused by "behavior". This is a very statistcally correct determination. My industry has started using behavior modification to reduce potential injuries and this has led to the biggest gains in improving safety. One program we have tried is called SafeStart. Based on their data they state that over 90% of all accidents are caused by these four states:

Rushing
Frustration
Fatigue
Complacency

and these four states can cause or contribute to these critical errors:

Eyes not on Task
Mind not on Task
Line-of-Fire
loss of Balance/Traction/Grip

When they first intruduced this everyone was upset that management throw something this simple at us. As we all learned through the training and discussions.....every accident everyone has had at home, or at work can be directly related to the four states & errors.

Once people realized that all you had to do to be safe was be aware of these few items, everything started to click. Almost everyone has let this filter into their lives at home and its made a great impact.

Now if we could just get the rest of the world to jump onto the "common sense" bandwagon, we could stop worrying about the stupid lawsuits.
 

paulspaddle

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
753
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

The problem, is the CYA, syndrome just as others have mentioned. Its a sad attempt to help protect an organization from lawsuit, and then gives everyone else a false sense of safety. I work in a very dangerous production environment, in which we must follow OSHA 1910 standards. The problem is that ever since OSHA was developed, companies have tried to over engineer safety potential out of the equation. Its impossible. Luckily there has been a realization that most accidents are caused by "behavior". This is a very statistcally correct determination. My industry has started using behavior modification to reduce potential injuries and this has led to the biggest gains in improving safety. One program we have tried is called SafeStart. Based on their data they state that over 90% of all accidents are caused by these four states:

Rushing
Frustration
Fatigue
Complacency

and these four states can cause or contribute to these critical errors:

Eyes not on Task
Mind not on Task
Line-of-Fire
loss of Balance/Traction/Grip

When they first intruduced this everyone was upset that management throw something this simple at us. As we all learned through the training and discussions.....every accident everyone has had at home, or at work can be directly related to the four states & errors.

Once people realized that all you had to do to be safe was be aware of these few items, everything started to click. Almost everyone has let this filter into their lives at home and its made a great impact.

Now if we could just get the rest of the world to jump onto the "common sense" bandwagon, we could stop worrying about the stupid lawsuits.

Hey, thanks for sharing this!

I'm currently finishing up my Education degree. One of my majors is in Industrial Arts and 90% chance I'll be a woods teacher. This clear approach to safety is excellent for the classroom. As you can imagine I am militant about safety in a woods lab and there are lots of rules, but I teach attitude also. This real world application will be useful.
 

tx1961whaler

Vice Admiral
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
5,197
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

uhhh, right. I thought you had some interesting things to say right up until that. What a ridiculous and flippant thing to say, tx1961whaler. Anyway, I don't think I'm going to take your "helpful" advice.

It was meant to be ridiculous and flippant. You just didn't quite get the point. You would never consider killing your wife on the off-chance that she MAY become unhinged and do harm to the kids. But we absolutely WILL smother our kids in the far less chance of a stranger abduction.
 

mscher

Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
1,424
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

OK, I'll play Devil's advocate.

How many Home Depot customers would, without even thinking, walk under a raised forklift, if there were not measures in place to prevent them from doing so? How many would walk right next to a moving forklift, feet inches away from the turning wheels.

How many Home Depot Employees have accidentally knocked large items off of the upper shelves to the floor below?

Sometimes even the "stupid" saftey measures may not be enough enough.


Ok, now I'll Rant

I can no longer climb on top of my tanker trailer at some fuel terminals, because 3 times out of 3,000,000 times up on the top, somebody fell off and died. I now have to wear fire retardent COTTON coveralls everywhere. Oh well. It's still a job. Just a lot less laid-back.

We can blame our Military for a lot of this saftey mess. The USAF was the safest place I had ever worked. ;)

Safety, Security and Regulatory Compliance, are the only growth departments, in American businesses today. :(


Everyone have a safe day.
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

Its all about making judgements. Sometimes we go overboard, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we think reactions are too severe, when they are not. The McDonalds case that Tim cleared up with the correct information, is a good example.

Big settlement for spilled coffee ... naw, can't be fair! Coffee can't do that, right?

Well, let me add to Tim's information. I once knew a woman who worked in a Wendy's, which had similar procedures concerning coffee temperature. She accidently dropped an urn of freshly brewed coffee, which broke when it hit one of her feet. The coffee burned her foot, through shoes and socks, so badly, that she nearly had to have it amputated. In fact, the only reason why she didn't lose the foot, is because she refused to let the docs take it off. She fought a battle for about a year trying to save it, because of poor circulation caused by the burns, plus the burn themselves. The docs did manage to save the foot, but it wasn't easy. I haven't seen this woman in years, but the last time I did see her, she still couldn't walk normally. That was a couple of years after the accident.

So, does HD over-react? Given the fact that big box home improvement stores are actually considered to be working warehouses, I don't think so. I also don't think so, because I used to send workers to fork truck training classes and got certified along with one of the groups. All I can say is, take my word for it and TD's word for it - you don't want to be anywhere near a fork truck or shelving system if something goes bad!

Keeping customers away from danger areas is smart and HD knows that through prior bad experience. At least they have fixed their problem and won't get their corporate hineys handed to them in court, for not fixing a known problem, like Mickey D's did.
 

lowkee

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
1,890
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

We are too overprotective, because we hear every bit of sensational bad news from every corner of the country (and world) instantly. We also don't have a good sense of perspective and ability to rationally evaluate risk. Look up the statistics for true stranger abductions in the US. It is statistically very near zero. It will be someone you know, are related to, or are acquainted with that will harm your children. But even the risk of that pales in comparison to harm caused by car accidents, bicycle accidents, and other household mishaps. If you wanted your child to be safe, statistically you'd be much better off letting the child run around the neighborhood with his friends, (but not on a bike) and never ever let him get in a car. But we can rationally weigh the risks of putting the child in a car, with a relatively high statistical chance of severe injury, versus the benefits of riding in the car. We are familiar with cars, use them every day, and accept the risk. But it's not as easy to rationalize the risks of the boogie-man snatching and butchering our child, even though it's about as likely as lightning hitting you.
If we want to play that game, then the best advice would be this: kill your wife, right now. There is a pretty high chance that she'll be the one to harm your child, rather than the predatory pedophile that is lurking around every tree. Hard to think about, but Mommy and Daddy kill their kids much more often than Uncle Pervy ever did. That's why cops look at them first; they understand the odds.
Now don't even get me started on the chance of the average American getting hurt in a terrorist attack......horrible when it happens, but statistically zero in a nation of [300] million people when the crap happens every 10 years or so.

Great post. I heard on NPR not too long ago how the total number of "terrorist" related deaths in the US is less than the number of suicides per year. ... <waits for the War On Suicide to begin>

I don't see life being any more dangerous than any other time in my life. The only difference which makes it *seem* more dangerous is we now hear news from outside our community. A previous post mentioned 4 kids being killed in his county, yet we're talking a seriously isolated incident (isolated enough to warrant a 'named' killer) in a county of likely well more than 4 kids. The statistics are near nil. What is the damage being done to those who are never allowed to make their own mistakes? We all complain about personal responsibility of people today, yet scream when mistakes are allowed to happen.

I think children are more at risk of harm due to parents no longer knowing neighbors. If something happened while I was a 'come home when the street lights come on' kid, the nearest neighbor would call my parents if it was warranted. How many people even bother knowing their next door neighbor anymore, let alone swap numbers with them?

Just read about the string of 14 year old girls setting sail around the globe lately. While scary, these are people living life. It seems to me a padded room used to be a place most people wished to avoid. Now many are afraid to leave it.
 

Brent S

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
181
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

Remember, SAFETY THIRD!!!!!!
 

mike64

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Joined
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Messages
1,042
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

It was meant to be ridiculous and flippant. You just didn't quite get the point. You would never consider killing your wife on the off-chance that she MAY become unhinged and do harm to the kids. But we absolutely WILL smother our kids in the far less chance of a stranger abduction.

I understood your point perfectly. I was reacting to the way you chose to make your point. When someone I don't know tells me I ought to kill my wife because she's more danger to my kids than a stranger, however jokingly it's meant to make a point, it doesn't sit well with me.
 

tx1961whaler

Vice Admiral
Joined
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Messages
5,197
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

I understood your point perfectly. I was reacting to the way you chose to make your point. When someone I don't know tells me I ought to kill my wife because she's more danger to my kids than a stranger, however jokingly it's meant to make a point, it doesn't sit well with me.

Peace! Not meant to personally insult you at all. That's the sticky issue with the word "You". It can be used a a general term or a specific term. It wasn't intended to mean that You "Bob", would make your specific wife "Sally" go away. Probably should have used the royal "We" instead. Or used another less shocking analogy.
The general point was made. There are risks, odds of the event happening to a person, and logical actions (including nothing) taken to mitigate the risk. Getting back to the original question, yes, I think that we take illogical actions based on miniscule risk of injury.
 

mike64

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
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Messages
1,042
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

Peace! Not meant to personally insult you at all. That's the sticky issue with the word "You". It can be used a a general term or a specific term. It wasn't intended to mean that You "Bob", would make your specific wife "Sally" go away. Probably should have used the royal "We" instead. Or used another less shocking analogy.
The general point was made. There are risks, odds of the event happening to a person, and logical actions (including nothing) taken to mitigate the risk. Getting back to the original question, yes, I think that we take illogical actions based on miniscule risk of injury.

OK, it's cool. Guess I did take it too personally. Peace out :)
 

Bigprairie1

Commander
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
2,568
Re: Is our society getting TOO careful??

We are too overprotective, because we hear every bit of sensational bad news from every corner of the country (and world) instantly. We also don't have a good sense of perspective and ability to rationally evaluate risk. Look up the statistics for true stranger abductions in the US. It is statistically very near zero. It will be someone you know, are related to, or are acquainted with that will harm your children. But even the risk of that pales in comparison to harm caused by car accidents, bicycle accidents, and other household mishaps. If you wanted your child to be safe, statistically you'd be much better off letting the child run around the neighborhood with his friends, (but not on a bike) and never ever let him get in a car. But we can rationally weigh the risks of putting the child in a car, with a relatively high statistical chance of severe injury, versus the benefits of riding in the car. We are familiar with cars, use them every day, and accept the risk. But it's not as easy to rationalize the risks of the boogie-man snatching and butchering our child, even though it's about as likely as lightning hitting you.
If we want to play that game, then the best advice would be this: kill your wife, right now. There is a pretty high chance that she'll be the one to harm your child, rather than the predatory pedophile that is lurking around every tree. Hard to think about, but Mommy and Daddy kill their kids much more often than Uncle Pervy ever did. That's why cops look at them first; they understand the odds.
Now don't even get me started on the chance of the average American getting hurt in a terrorist attack......horrible when it happens, but statistically zero in a nation of 600 million people when the crap happens every 10 years or so.

I fully agree with this and yes it is very accurate...and yes of course there is some tongue in cheek comments there w.r.t to the wife thing...no biggy.:)
Ironically I heard yesterday that last year over 5000 kids were injured in automobile accidents with the far greater share of these being in the morning.
However imagine trying to tell a modern mom (or dad) that their children will be safer if they walk them to school....healthier too. (good luck with that:D)
Clearly the line has got a little fuzzy as to what constitutes harm vs. threat vs. danger and this has been clearly marketed in spades to the modern parent. :confused:
Something has changed since our grandparents and great parents raised the current generations....and it isn't an increase in local danger.
As for general safety like the home depot point...ahh, I'm good with it. No harm in using a hard hat and high visibility vest from time to time.
All Good
BP:):cool:
 
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