Is Schematic in the House ?

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Ebbtide, I tried that already, nothing !

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Troyo<br /><br />It is best to check for voltages as close to the motor as possible. All voltages must be checked WHILE the tilt switch is being activated either up or down. Thats the only time there should be power there. If the motor wires go directly to the solenoids,(no plug inbetween) then you have to check them where they attach to the solenoids. Do not puncture the wires as they will haunt you later......<br />

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

troyo, i'm thru with tax $#%^! and we might've given you plenty, and maybe i shouldn't be takin this to the top again, but anyhoo... IF- you have put a jumper cable(black) on the motor casing, and THEN 'touched' the green or red and not gotten a peep outten the t/t motor - then you simply screwed up in the reassembly of said t/t motor OR a brush is not makin contact. these things are elementary, but there are many variables to help them NOT work. the red wire gets 12v to spin the armature clockwise(or visaversa),the green wire gets 12v to spin cc. the windings inside MUST have a grnd on the case, OR thru the black wire, IF not screwed to the case. {unless i've gone totally braindead)-it is possible

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

I was hoping I just screwed it up when I reassembled it; motor was fine before I took it apart, so I'm sure it still works; due to family issues, I actually wont get to work on it again until this weekend (don't you hate when that happens)

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Ok, here's how it went this weekend. I started testing the voltage at the soelenoid it was fine there, also down at the motor, and it was fine there as well; took the casing from the motor and found the spring holding the down side brush was rusted and broken, thus explaining why the up worked fine and the down sporadically. Cleaned the whole motor, brushes, etc. with some contact cleaner. Couldn't find the exact spring, so I had to make due with a similar one, but was hard to get the same amount of resistance. Put it back together , and it took several times as it seemed like the armature was binding. Finally, appeared to work great,put all back together and it kicked butt ! Ran it up and down like it was new. Naturally, since it worked, I had to put her in the water for a run, again, worked great trimming up and down. Then, at some point unk, the down tilt stopped working, but the up works great. I don't even hear the click at the soelenoid for the down side. When I do the manual release to let 'er down, hit the up switch, and zips it right up. Doesn't sound like it's binding or anything, but how can I be sure. I plan to test the voltage again at motor and soelenoid, but I assume it has to be either the switch, soelenoid, ord the spring that I replaced. Any more suggestions ???

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

its not a brush issue, so don't tear it apart. Check for power to the red and green when powering it up and down. Both brushes are used when tilting up and down. Its either an external power issue(solenoid, connections etc.) or a bad winding or connection in the motor. Check for voltage first.

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Schematic, let me ask you this... the springs in the brushes, do they serve to keep the brush making contact with the aramature ? Or do they do anything else ? When you say bad winding, what is that ? Would that only affect the down motion and not the up motion ?

 

[sho305]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Forgive my junmping in here...<br />The springs hold the brushes against the armature for good contact yes. To much will wear the brushes too fast. This contact must be clean and shine, use fine sand paper sparingly is needed. motor will not work without both brushes in good order. The trick is to get the cover back on without the brushes flying out, sometimes there is a hole to put a paperclip in to hold them until it is together(maybe not with a marine sealed system)<br /><br />Looks like you have a power wire to two silenoids and a up wire to one and a down wire to the other from the dash switch. This is so the power does not go through the switch; the switch makes the silenoids connect the power for up or down. The black wire must have a good ground. If it works one way ground is good. Problem is on down side with silenoid not working or not activated from switch. If two brush motor works one way it will work the other way. You can mess up timing of the motor, but normally bolts only fit one way and align brushes to case correctly. <br /><br />Use down and test for power at motor, then work toward switch to find where it stops. Note power for motor comes through silenoid and not from switch, switch just trips silenoid to connect bigger power direct from battery, like a car starter but this one runs two directions. If motor is not grounded through case it may ground through silenoids as well when polarity is reversed. Motor will be hot but not work, or not hot and no ground when silenoid is not working(tested at brushes)and there is power from switch to activate silenoid.<br /><br />You can do this no problem once you see how power is flowing; the switch only controls the silenoids so you have two systems in effect, and the other is big amperage direct to the motor via silenoids from the battery(should be larger gauge wires).<br /><br />Hope this helps, makes it easier for me when I can see the whole picture.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hi troyo<br /><br />There are 2 windings in the motor (see diagram, red/green)<br />One is used for up and one is used for down. If one failes or opens, it will only affect up or down. The brushes are both required for up and down. If it goes one way, but not the other, its cause there is no votage applied for that direction, or the winding is bad inside the motor. Thats why I asked you to measure for voltage at the motor when it won't trim.... you must do this when it won't motor, and the button is pressed

 

[sho305]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Most motors reverse the current through the brushes to reverse, not have separate brushes for reversing. The motor would have to ground the other brush or have another ground brush aside from the two.<br /><br />OK, I am going to look at mine now. I have a Force and a Merc with trim here. And my back is killing me too, but I'll look in there. Just for you guys...

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

sho305<br />TnT motors which have "permanent magnet fields" reverse rotation by reversing current flow through the armature.(2 wire)<br />TnT motors which have "electromagnetic fields" reverse rotation by utilizing one field winding or the other.(3 wire)<br /><br />

 

[sho305]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Aha...ok, I think I have seen one of those. Seems like you could just apply 12v to each positive pole in turn to check operation of only the motor then, if a three brush config. Sounds maybe like a bad connection/silenoid with the intermitant operation though. Maybe try a wiggle test on the wiring as well if not done before.

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

sho305 <br />It doesn't have 3 brushes. See above schematic....it is common to have one lead break away from the splice, but lets not go there until we resolve a motor or power supply problem.

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Schematic, <br />I truly appreciate all the help; I'm picking the rig up tonight and plan on working on it this weekend. Just to make sure I have this right, first check the voltage at the down soelenoid, right ? If the Voltage is good there, then I test for 12 volts at the motor. In my case, I have a common ground, red is for up and green is for down; I should test with a probe on the green/ground, and the red/ground; both of these tested with the switch on. If I understand this correctly, since it is working in the up direction, both brushes must be making good contact so the spring is ok. And if it was binding, it wouldn't go up as smoothly or at all, right ?

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

That is correct, one lead to green, and one to ground. Then, one lead to red and one to ground....<br />Be sure you are activating the switch when testing for voltage...

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

OK, went to storage yard to work on her last night. Of course, there's always a problem. The battery was low, only getting around 4-5 volts; tested the top and bottom soelenoid, and both were constantly 'hot' on the top side, even withouth the switch pushed. Is that normal ? When I hit the up switch, the there was voltage on the out side of the soelenoid. When I would hit the down switch, there was nothing on the back side of the down soelenoid. Didn't mess with taking motor apart. Since the battery was low, the up trim wouldn't power it up. Is that normal with weak batery ? Or would it at least try ?? My plan now is to go back with my fresh battery, and I'm hoping the up still works. on the down, I will wire it to the up soelenoid and see if it trims it down when down is depressed. Does this seem logical before taking motor back apart ??

 

[chumbucket]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Schematic you put up you drawing of a 2 battery hook up please Thanks

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Don't even try to operate tnt with a dead battery, and 4-5 volts is DEAD. Don't pull anything apart until battery voltage is atleast 11-12 volts WHILE "trimming".<br /><br />Chumbucket<br />I have an even better picture that I'll post later today.

 

[troyo]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

Hey Schematic, are you there ?? What do you think of nothing on the back leg of the down soelenoid. Even though Voltage low, wouldn't it still show low voltage on back side when trimming down ??

 

[petryshyn]

Re: Is Schematic in the House ?

if voltage is as low as you say, it is likely that it is going to zero voltages when you put a load on it. Don't procede until you have a good battery!!!!