Its all about the almighty dollar

[slag]

One thing I wanted to get off my chest and then I won't talk about it again is how expensive dealers, mechanics, and even internet sites make boating out to be.

It doesn't have to be that way.

Regarding alignment tools, get one for piece of mind, but there are cheaper ways of making one if you see the need with common household items to make the correct diameters at the correct lengths. Will I get one? Sure, probably in the future, but I find it humorous when people say you "need" to have tools to do the job that aren't necessary, like the exhaust bellows expander. Total waste of money. Heck, I even read up on the sterndrives site that in no circumstance should I use a standard deep well socket as it wont have the clearance needed for the shift cable but that was a load of bull malarky as the 3 9/16 deep well sockets I had all had sufficient wall clearance (although only one was long enough to use). A quick tack weld of a nut on top made it useable and takes only a few minutes to do.
And I quote, "To remove and install the shift cable sheath, you will need an extra deep 9/16" socket which has been turned down to have thin walls.
Snap-On tools sells a great extra deep 9/16" socket but it will absolutely NOT WORK unless you have the walls thinned."

Total lie.. none of mine were turned and all 3 fit fine and none were Snap-on. They were just standard plain jane Craftsman sockets. I find it funny how they now have an "affordable" tool for only $27.40 plus shipping. This is the kind of crap that really scares people into thinking they need to spend mega bucks to replace stuff. That price is an absolute joke for a slightly extended socket. Way overpriced for what it is. Should cost 5-10 bucks tops for what it is.

Pulling an outdrive, replacing bellows, gimbal bearing, etc, its all really shadetree stuff that anyone with a few tools can do cheaply, but it bothers me to no end that there are these sites that masquerade as being helpful with their guides, but are really just thinly veiled attempts to sell their items at large markups--items that are not needed to do the job.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Regarding alignment tools, get one for piece of mind, but there are cheaper ways of making one if you see the need with common household items to make the correct diameters at the correct lengths.

Sounds good. Talk is cheap. An explanation or example would be nice!

Heck, I even read up on the sterndrives site that in no circumstance should I use a standard deep well socket as it wont have the clearance needed for the shift cable

A quick tack weld of a nut on top made it useable and takes only a few minutes to do.

Sounds like you had to weld the nut to it because the shift cable was in the drive recess - in other words it didn't have clearance for the shift cable ....

Sounds like welding the nut to the top of it was all that made it usable for you. I think you'll find that the vast majority of boaters don't have access to a welder.

Snap-On tools sells a great extra deep 9/16" socket but it will absolutely NOT WORK unless you have the walls thinned."

Total lie.. none of mine were turned and all 3 fit fine and none were Snap-on. They were just standard plain jane Craftsman sockets.

Maybe that's why you didn't have to thin yours - because it wasn't the Snap -on one that's deep enough (but too thick) to work without welding a nut on top!

Sounds more like mis-understandings to me than malicious intent on their part. If you have a better and cheaper way to do it, start your own site and you'll be able to afford to pay someone to do it for you!

 

[seabob4]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

45,
Don't think that starting a site is going to make you money. I have my own site (The Proline Guy..), I've been in the business a long time, I help people out dealing with their boats, provide resources, vendor links, wiring diagrams, trouble-shooting...

I've gotten maybe $300 in donations since March...

 

[slag]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Sounds good. Talk is cheap. An explanation or example would be nice!



Sounds like you had to weld the nut to it because the shift cable was in the drive recess - in other words it didn't have clearance for the shift cable ....

Sounds like welding the nut to the top of it was all that made it usable for you. I think you'll find that the vast majority of boaters don't have access to a welder.



Maybe that's why you didn't have to thin yours - because it wasn't the Snap -on one that's deep enough (but too thick) to work without welding a nut on top!

Sounds more like mis-understandings to me than malicious intent on their part. If you have a better and cheaper way to do it, start your own site and you'll be able to afford to pay someone to do it for you!

All the tools "needed" are easier to make quickly or pay someone to make than it is to buy. My point is, dont be fleeced. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Its not about being able to afford to pay someone to do it, its a matter of not having to pay expensive prices because a dealer or tool seller thinks they can get one over on you. If you feel comfortable paying the prices and having someone do simple maintenance on your boat, than feel free, but for the majority of us who don't, there are alternatives out there that work just as well and are free or a lot cheaper. Instead of welding a nut onto a socket, you could also get an el-cheapo 1/2 inch extension at harbor freight or the like for a few bucks and drill a hole in the end. That way it would clear the shift cable tip easily.

If you dont think charging $27.40 for a 5 dollar socket is malicious intent, then I have some swampland to sell you in Florida.

Btw, what site or dealer do you work for?

 

[a70eliminator]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I know exactly what your feeling, and internet discussions about this stuff can get upsetting to say the least, it's like those stainless nylock bolts that are specified to be discarded and replaced with newand the new ones cost 16 bucks each times 6, I think the price is just a little inflated, but it's the same point.

 

[jeeperman]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Yes there are more than one way to do a job.
In my younger years I helped around a farm machinery repair machine shop.
The owner had 50 years of experience of doing everything without the "properest" tool.
Heck in the 1990's he was still using the acetylene generator to supply his cutting torch with acetylene.
Not many people living know what the other ingredient besides water is required to do that.

 

[iop]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I think we all know what we are getting into.
If you have the resources and don't want to deal with extra looking/learning/doing then you pay... but its really like anything else. No???

 

[109jb]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Yep there are many ways to skin a cat. The manufacturers and vendors are in the business of selling tools that do the job the way that they are intended to be used and also TO MAKE MONEY. That's business. Business IS about the all mighty dollar.

While welding a nut to the top of the socket may work, is that what you would want to buy as the "proper" tool to do the job? Is that what the vendors should sell? Maybe you don't care, but other's do.

As for the special extra deep socket, obviously your sockets didn't work as manufactured and you had to weld a nut on top. So yours didn't exactly work either The manual stated that the Snap-on extra deep wouldn't fit. You called this a "Total Lie". Since you didn't check the specific Snap-on extra deep socket mentioned then you can't say whether or not it would fit. I would say it isn't a lie at all and although your method worked it is not feasible or desirable for everyone.

I have made and modified many many tools in my lifetime including fabricating them, bending them, cutting tools off, welding on them, etc. It works, but in just about every case where I thought I would need the original or special tool again I would have bought the special tool to do the job if it was available. It is personal preference.

As an example, you don't NEED a special prop nut wrench to remove the prop on your boat either, but some people like having them. I'm not one of those people, but if they want to buy the special tools then that is their choice.

As for the manufacturers/vendors ripping people off for an "affordable" tool that in your opinion is overpriced, you have to consider that this special tool is being manufactured or modified in smallish quantities for a specialized market. Go to a machine shop with a dimensioned drawing for a standard Craftsman socket and have them give you a quote for making them in quantities of 1, 10, 100. The price per unit is going to be WAY higher than the price on the shelf at Sears. Craftsman sockets are cheap because they are mass produced in huge quantities. Now consider that $27 tool that is made in small quantities for that specialized market. Not to hard for me to see why a specialized socket is $27 instead of $10.

I commend you for having the ingenuity to find alternate ways of doing things, but just because there are alternate ways doesn't make the recommended way bad or a rip off.

 

[Sixmark]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

If a person really wants to save money in the boating world, then quite honestly the one big way to save money is research, it applies to labor, parts, tools, supplies.

If a person spends the time to research then you can always find cheaper and more efficient ways to accomplish your goal. but it's also going to mean more of your own time invested.

Take for example my boat restoration, I could pay someone to do it for me, but by doing it myself I am saving money, and the best thing is, I am getting things done exactly as I want them done and I won't have any questions afterward.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

If you dont think charging $27.40 for a 5 dollar socket is malicious intent, then I have some swampland to sell you in Florida.

How much would you charge me for a cable nut removal tool?

Please send specs and pricing on your swampland. It's pretty obvious you don't own your own business or work for yourself. There's a huge difference between making something for yourself and ignoring most of the costs that go into it, and trying to actually sell something even for a minimal profit.

Instead of welding a nut onto a socket, you could also get an el-cheapo 1/2 inch extension at harbor freight or the like for a few bucks and drill a hole in the end.

Ok, let's see how cheap you could sell your tool.

You've got $2.50 in a cheap socket, $2.50 in an extension. A few dollars in the drill bit that'll last for 5 or 6 tools. Or if you're going to weld a nut to it add a few dollars for welding costs. Say it takes you about 5 minutes to build one and you think you ought to be making $24/hour for your time. That's an additional $2 apiece to add to the cost. Puts you right about $10 each you've got tied up in them so far. Amoritize your house payment, electric bill, taxes, insurance, drill motor cost, vise or clamp for holding the extension to drill it, welder, advertising, packaging materials, etc, into the cost and you'll probably have to sell them for $100 each just to break even.

First time I had to remove a lower shift cable I made a tool exactly like you described. Only difference was I chucked the extension into a lathe to drill the hole. If I thought there was any profit in selling them at $25 each I'd have them all over the net.

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

As an example, you don't NEED a special prop nut wrench to remove the prop on your boat either, but some people like having them. I'm not one of those people, but if they want to buy the special tools then that is their choice.

You're right. You don't need them...in the driveway. But drop a large crescent wrench 10 miles off shore and that sucker won't float like the $20.00 plastic one!!

 

[soaringhiggy]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Yes there are more than one way to do a job.
In my younger years I helped around a farm machinery repair machine shop.
The owner had 50 years of experience of doing everything without the "properest" tool.
Heck in the 1990's he was still using the acetylene generator to supply his cutting torch with acetylene.
Not many people living know what the other ingredient besides water is required to do that.

Carbide

 

[109jb]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

You're right. You don't need them...in the driveway. But drop a large crescent wrench 10 miles off shore and that sucker won't float like the $20.00 plastic one!!

I was only making the point that the special tools are many times a choice. BTW, you could tie a loop of cord or rope to the eye of a crescent wrench and it doesn't have to float.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Carbide

I'm pretty sure it's calcium carbide. A carbide is a compound that contains carbon and something else. There's all kinds of carbides. "Carbide" by itself usually refers to tungsten carbide, commonly used in machining cutters. None of my carbide cutters will give off any gas in water .....

 

[Stachi]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I agree with both points...buying and using the special tool, and making do with some old fashioned ingenuity...whether it is a rip off ... I dunno...maybe poor maintenance forethought by the designers of what you are working on..they really make some things nearly impossible to do...our rule in my shop is...if we have enough call for it to make us money vs. time , we buy it , and get the best out there , so it is a one time expenditure (warranty).

 

[whitjohn]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I'm in the machine shop business myself so I can vouch for the fact that these specialty tools are expensive to produce in small quantities. However a person can usually get by without them. In most cases they do make a particular task easier and faster.......with faster being the key word.

Time is money....so let's suppose you can get X amount for a particular job......with a special tool it takes Y minutes to complete.....without the tool it take 3Y to complete. Three times the money in the same amount of time....no brainer.

I have a box full of special tools.....ones I have made....along with some that I bought......because I could make more money doing something else than I could save by making the tool myself.

Believe me...I've seen.....and repaired a lot of stuff that someone fuked up by not having the proper tool.

 

[whitjohn]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I agree with both points...buying and using the special tool, and making do with some old fashioned ingenuity...whether it is a rip off ... I dunno...maybe poor maintenance forethought by the designers of what you are working on..they really make some things nearly impossible to do...our rule in my shop is...if we have enough call for it to make us money vs. time , we buy it , and get the best out there , so it is a one time expenditure (warranty).

Good point......but....the mfgs design things such that the average...let's say DIYer.....can't work on it. This means more money/profit for them.

I had a friend that used to own a small town Dodge dealership. Every years he was REQUIRED by Chrysler to purchase ALL the specialty tools that came with the new year model cars. It would be anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000 dollars every year. He closed the dealership.

 

[PGFISHER]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

I'm pretty sure it's calcium carbide. A carbide is a compound that contains carbon and something else. There's all kinds of carbides. "Carbide" by itself usually refers to tungsten carbide, commonly used in machining cutters. None of my carbide cutters will give off any gas in water .....

You must be an old timer! The only reason I knew what he was talking about is that I remember using carbide lamps; but then I'm probably older than his generator.

 

[Stachi]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

Good point......but....the mfgs design things such that the average...let's say DIYer.....can't work on it. This means more money/profit for them.

I had a friend that used to own a small town Dodge dealership. Every years he was REQUIRED by Chrysler to purchase ALL the specialty tools that came with the new year model cars. It would be anywhere from $30,000 to $40,000 dollars every year. He closed the dealership.

not to argue your point, but , I would bet a major portion of that 30 to 40k , is in software...the special mechanical tools I still believe , are from neglecting to design ease of maintenance...ask any professional auto mechanic...some tasks are a REAL PIA , and no special tool is made , or would help...just tight quarters and no access.
I had to replace a heater bypass steel coolant tube, leading from the ther,ostat housing to the heater core on a 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5 liter yesterday...an engine mount , oil filter,and starter had to be removed before I could even see the entire tube...due to the fact it was designed to run between the starter and the exhaust manifold on the drivers side of the engine, it had rotted away and was leaking. I was cursing Chrysler the whole way thru the job....lets not even talk about the waterpump on the Chrysler 2.7 being driven by the TIMING CHAIN !!!!

 

[Tailguner]

Re: Its all about the almighty dollar

i have worked for car dealerships for about 20 years and what he says about special tools and cost are about right. The software is not included in special tools.... we get billed seperately for that and each dept has to pay to keep their computers up to date. AND most manufactures wont pay a warranty claim if you dont have a special too for the job the manual says you need even if the tech has figured out a work around or snap on or someone else have come up with a cheaper alternative... And the kicker is when times get slow or when the factory gets a hair up their as the special tool manufacturer will come in and audit you and they will automatically ship and bill you for any missing specail tools you are supposed to have. You gotta love those kent-moore guys....The parts dept was paying 500.00 a month to keep their computers up to date using THIRD party software and us in service were paying slightly less...

not to argue your point, but , I would bet a major portion of that 30 to 40k , is in software...the special mechanical tools I still believe , are from neglecting to design ease of maintenance...ask any professional auto mechanic...some tasks are a REAL PIA , and no special tool is made , or would help...just tight quarters and no access.
I had to replace a heater bypass steel coolant tube, leading from the ther,ostat housing to the heater core on a 99 Chrysler 300M 3.5 liter yesterday...an engine mount , oil filter,and starter had to be removed before I could even see the entire tube...due to the fact it was designed to run between the starter and the exhaust manifold on the drivers side of the engine, it had rotted away and was leaking. I was cursing Chrysler the whole way thru the job....lets not even talk about the waterpump on the Chrysler 2.7 being driven by the TIMING CHAIN !!!!