Johnson 225 Ignition timing

[Heavyeight]

The motor is a 1992 Johnson 225, bought it from a rebuild shop in 2000 and have had many problems. Shop is since out of business. <br /><br />A short history. It ate a piston ring, original shop repaired. Fuel pump went bad, it was a VRO, I replaced with proper pump for in tank mixing. Lower unit pinion gear exploded thru case, original shop repaired. This was all right after I purchased it in 2000. This spring the lower unit once again self destructed, had a rebuilt installed by reputable shop. The motor has never idled smoothly. I have had an intermittent problem with the ignition where I will have no spark during cold start. Have been unable to find source. Motor floods easily, problem has worsened lately. If I pressurize until primer bulb firm, it's flooded. Hot starts only with throttle cracked, not in neutral.<br /><br />This week I decided to rebuild the carbs, try to reduce flooding, improve idle. Job went smoothly, found one float out of adjustment to lean side, no varnish or other obvious problems. There was some fuel leakage evident behind the air cover, rebuild seems to have cured all that. After rebuild fuel system pressurizes better on prime, still flooded, had to start WOT. Idle was no better. Best way to descibe it is loping or surging.<br /><br />Decided to set idle timing. Followed Clymers manual under engine sycronization. It calls for idle timing to be set at 6 degrees ATDC. I found mine set at 2 degrees BTDC. Thought I found the cure! I attempted to set it at 6 degrees ATDC and motor wouldn't run. Fooled around with it for a couple hours, started with throttle cam pickup point and followed whole procedure. As far retarded as I could get was 3 degrees ATDC and it still ran like crap. Lot of surging, had to open throttle to start. A couple times I heard serious detonation. At 6 degrees ATDC the spark dwell adjustment knob is incapable of moving timer base. Idle very erratic, clearly is worse with timing retarded. I doubt it will even start tomorrow, didn't want to at the end of today.<br /><br />My questions:<br /><br />Anybody kow what's wrong with this ignition? Is 6 degrees ATDC the right number, and why doesn't it work? Could the rebuild shop have used wrong components, some other parts haven't matched. Could a weak spark be responsible, also for the easy flooding/hard starting? Any ideas on how to get it started now with timing so screwed up? Any way to go back to step A with ignition and reindex everything? I've thought of reindexing flywheel, but I have to get it to start and of course it needs the infamous "special tool". Should air cover be on to set timing?<br /><br />I know this is a long post, but I wanted to detail steps already taken. Motor may be doing double duty as anchor in near future.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Anybody want to tackle this one? I'm really searching for a starting point to troubleshoot this. How can the book value timing make the motor run so poorly? Is 6 degrees ATDC the right number? How can I set up timing from scratch to try and restart this motor?<br /><br />One additional piece of info. After cold start and at slow speeds occasionally no spark to number one cylinder. As engine warms up or RPM increased I get a spark and cylinder clears itself.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

HeavyEight.... Remove the carburetor face plate, them pressurize the fuel primer bulb. If there's a fuel oozing out of the carburetors, they will require reworking. Pressurizing the fuel primer bulb WILL NOT cause a engine to flood unless the carburetors are faulty or if the primer solenoid is faulty or the primer solenoid has the RED lever set to the wrong position.<br /><br />In the case of faulty carbs, they would require cleaning and rebuilding. Set the floats as follows.<br /><br />(Carburetor Float Setting)<br /> <br />With the carburetor body held upside down, the float being viewed from the side, adjust the float so that the free end of the float (the end opposite the hinge pin) is ever so slightly higher (off level) than the other end. And when viewed from the end, make sure it is not cocked.<br /><br />Now.... Timing. If you're checking the timing at cranking speed, there will be a 4° difference between what is registering and what the actual timing should be... as follows:<br /><br />(Timing At Cranking Speed 4°)<br /><br />The full spark advance can be adjusted without have the engine running at near full throttle as follows. <br /><br />To set the timing on that engine, have the s/plugs out, and have the throttle at full, set that timer base under the flywheel tight against the rubber stop on the end of the full spark timer advance stop screw (wire it against that stop if necessary). <br /><br />Rig a spark tester and have the spark gap set to 7/16". Hook up the timing light to the #1 plug wire. Crank the engine over and set the spark advance to 4° less than what the engine calls for. <br /><br />I don't know the full spark advance setting your engine calls for, but to pick a figure, say your engine calls for 28°, set the timing at 24°. The reasoning for the 4° difference is that when the engine is actually running, due to the nature of the solid state ignition componets, the engine gains the extra 4°. <br /><br />If you set the engine to its true setting at cranking speed, when running it will advance beyond its limit by 4° which will set up pre-ignition causing guaranteed piston damage! You don't want that to take place. <br /><br />No need to be concerned about the idle timing as that will take care of itself. The main concern is the full advance setting. <br /><br />Be sure to use your own engines spark advance settings, not the one I picked out of the air here in my notes.<br /><br />I've read nothing about compression or spark. Compression should be approx 100 psi and even on all cylinders. Spark, with the plugs out, should jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue flame on all cylinders. What do you have there?<br /><br />The wires leading to the coils.... Top wire should be Orange/Blue, Center should be plain Orange, Bottom should be Orange/Green. Possible they are crossed?

 

[clanton]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

What kind and part number for fuel pump? One old style fuel pump is not enough fuel for a 225. When you work with the timing, you need to by pass Quick Start. If you donot bypass Quick Start you could be off 6 degrees either way, depending on the timimg method you use. The idle timing could be 4/6 six degrees depending on too many things too list. When the engine is cold, timing advances 6 degrees until engine reaches operating temp. Warm engine advances timing six degrees for about 5/10 seconds. The final check on the engine idle timing only done after engine up to temp, and in water in gear, why, because the idle timing changes the idle rpms. Full advance, should be check at about 5000 rpms with throttle fully opened in gear in water. When the engine is right, should start with throttle closed, engine will idle at about 1100 rpms until up to temp, then idle down to set idle, which should be about 750 rpms in gear in water. When you check the ignition system, you have to check the start sensors and the run sensors. Check the compression, magnets in flywheel. Check the power coil in stator, if the coil is bad timer will not switch from start to run. I will send you a bulletin on checking the timer sensors, if you donot have a OMC manual.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Joe:<br /><br />Thanks for the info. I did rebuild the carbs last week, all floats set correctly, no leakage or oozing fuel anywhere. I guess the reason I assumed the motor was flooding was that I have to start it very lean (can't fully pressurize fuel system) and often only at WOT. Could be part of the timing problem. Should've thought that thru better. The only fuel leakage had been between main bodies and throttle bodies, and out of 1 float bowl. All repaired now. <br /><br />I haven't set up a spark tester but will do so. I do know that occasionally there is no spark when cold starting, problem comes and goes, I haven't been able to find the source. Also, as I said above sometimes no spark to number 1 when cold and at idle speed. <br /><br />All ignition coil wires are hooked up properly.<br /><br />I will follow your procedure for setting max spark advance while cranking. I had been wondering how to do that without a test wheel and being able to go to 4000+ RPM. Mine is 19 BTDC I believe. Thanks.<br /><br />Mech who replaced lower unit did a compression check. All between 90 and 100.<br /><br />I'm still confused as to why when I checked idle timing it was so far off, and when I attempted to set book value the engine basically stopped running. This was done in forward idle. Once I set max spark advance, and providing I can get motor to start, should I attempt to set idle timing and speed according to the book? Everything is out of adjustment at this point. Thanks again!

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Clanton:<br /><br />Fuel pump installed was a new OEM part from an OMC dealer. Paperwork doesn't give part number but it OMC instructions call it a "VRO style" fuel only pump. The kit comes with either the Fuel/oil pump or the fuel only pump depending on which you want. I pre-mix and went fuel only.<br /><br />Quick start performs as you described on my motor, and has always worked. Idle comes down when engine warm, values within parameters. I didn't disconnect quick start, but the engine was warmed to operating temp and in forward gear at idle, boat in water. I followed the Clymers manual procedure for setting idle timing. This is when I found it set at 2 degrees BTDC. By the time I got it back to 4-5 ATDC (book value) the running was so rough I had a hard time completing the steps to adjust dwell and get the right idle speed. Just wouldn't run at that setting. I had not set the max spark advance, perhaps that's the problem. I don't know what else could have been advancing the timing, other than the quick start, to explain why it was originally at 2 BTDC at forward idle, warm, in water. Thanks.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Don't worry about the idle timing. Adjust the max advance as described by Joe Reeves and Clanton. The idle timing will take care of itself.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Will give it a shot tomorrow or Monday and let everyone know how it goes. Thanks for all the help!<br /><br />Doug

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Finally got back to the motor today. Had to find a Stevens s-48 spark tester, it took awhile.<br /><br />Spark jumps 7/16 gap, and is blue in color, thin spark, all cylinders. This is in the Florida sun. Number one spark seems weaker then others, and after much cranking began to lose spark to number one.<br /><br />Tried to set max spark advance according to Joe Reeves instructions and met with much the same result as my previous attempts. Spark plugs removed, spark tester attached, WOT. Timer base was against stop on max advance screw in this condition. Initially found timing off scale BTDC. My Clymers manual calls for max spark advance 17-19 BTDC. So I marked 14 BTDC at cranking speed. Could not retard it enough to get this value, got to 16 BTDC and was running out of adjustment screw. That can't be right. Although it idled rough before, it always ran well WOT, it couldn't have been that far off. Plus not enough adjustment screw to get desired value (screw all the way in).<br /><br />I decided to check TDC on flywheel vs. number 1 piston. Unscientifically, with a marked screwdriver, TDC on flywheel seems to correspond to TDC of piston.<br /><br />I found that the wiring under my flywheel does not correspond to Clymers 225 wiring diagram. Instead of having two sets of brown and brown/yellow wires (charge coil?) coming off fore and aft of stator, I have two sets of gray and gray/yellow coming off aft. The orange and orange/black wires come off fore part of stator instead of aft. Timer base wires seem to correspond to book.<br /><br />Model number on this engine is J225CXENR (counter rotating?). Anybody have any timing specs they could check against my Clymers manual to make sure I have the right numbers? Any ideas what's up with stator not conforming to wiring diagram? <br /><br />I didn't try to start it today, felt timing is too much of an unknown now to even attempt. I'm at a loss right now.<br /><br />Thanks!

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Heavyweight.... In your last post you state "Spark jumps 7/16 gap, and is blue in color, thin spark, all cylinders. This is in the Florida sun. Number one spark seems weaker then others, and after much cranking began to lose spark to number one."<br /><br />With the spark plugs OUT, you should have a solid wide strong blue flame that is constant. Unplug the main RED electrical connector at the engine and recheck the spark. Use a small jumper at the starter solenoid to crank the engine, jumping from the battery cable connection on the solenoid to the small 3/8" hex nut that energizes the solenoid (not the 3/8" ground nut).<br /><br />If the spark remains weak and thin, inspect the stator under the flywheel. In all probability it is starting to melt down at the large black coils that supply AC voltage to the powerpack(s). If so, replace the stator.<br /><br />If however, after unpluging that main RED connector, you find that you have a increased and normal strong blue flame jumping that 7/16" gap, the usual cause is a failing ignition switch. To check the switch, connect the RED plug at the engine, then remove the black/yellow wire at the ignition switch, then once again check the spark. If the spark is still a strong blue solid flame such as you saw when the RED plug was disconnected, replace the ignition switch.<br /><br />The Brown Brown/yellow (or orange) wires leading from the stator pertain to AC voltage to the powerpack(s). The Yellow Yellow/Gray wires would pertain to the charging system. Why any of them would be different in color is unknown to me at the present.<br /><br />The timing problem... No intentions of insulting your intelligence here, just want to avoid a lack of communication. Number one (1) cylinder is the top starboard (right) cylinder. Top right meaning, standing in back of and facing the engine cylinder heads.<br /><br />Not being able to time the engine makes me wonder if the flywheel key is sheared.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Use a piston stop and verify the timing pointer with tdc on the flywheel. I think you're Clymer manual explains this procedure.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Joe/Hooty:<br /><br />I have correctly identified number one cylinder, no insult to intelligence. Clymer is less clear on this matter than most automotive manuals, but wiring diagram shows it correctly.<br /><br />I would like to index flywheel pointer, but OMC tool 384887 is 33 bucks, just can't do it right now. I feel that TDC flywheel is very close to TDC based on where piston drives screwdriver I stick into spark plug hole. Not enough error to account for my problems.<br /><br />Joe: Spark looked like lightening, not flame. Will follow up on tests you described.<br /><br />As far as wires under flywheel. My Clymer's manual shows 2 charge coils, one fore and one aft on the stator. Both brown and brown/yellow. I don't have this. I have two charge coils next to each other on aft stator that are gray and gray(could be brown)/yellow. The orange and orange/black wires that are supposed to be aft are forward on the stator. Yellow and gray/yellow wires are where they are supposed to be, except they are associated with the charge coil wires coming from under the stator.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure the flywheel is where it is supposed to be. Could rebuild shop have stuck some other type of ignition on this motor? I am trying to check part numbers now.<br /><br />Doug

 

[93bronco]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

hope you get it rite , cause i learn from these looper posts. good luck

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I'm at a disadvantage because the newest oem manual I have is an '80 and my Clymer only goes to '90 but the gray and gray/yellow wires go from the alternator to the rectifier. They have nothing to do with the ignition. From what I can tell from the Clymers, each charge coil should have three wires. One coil's wires are orange, black/orange and brown/white. The other coil's wires are brown,brown/yellow and brown/black. And you're right, those coils should be side by side.<br /><br />One other thing I just thought of, your flywheel may have tdc and timing marks on it for nr. 2 cylinder also. That's confused me before, that's why I remembered.<br /><br />Keep us posted.<br /><br />g'luck & c/6<br /><br />Hooty<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Heavyeight.... "Flame" is just the way I explain the visual portion. Actually it does look more like lightening, only heavy thick lightening, not a thin pencil like line lightening.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Joe:<br /><br />Your description leads me to believe I have a weak spark. Will carry out tests today.<br /><br />As far as the wires off the stator, there are two 2 pin connectors, both brown brown/yellow, and also a set of orange/orange/black wires. I believe these are all charge coil wires. Upon examination of several wiring diagrams I find that in 1992 the brown brown/yellow connectors were supposed to come off one fore and one aft on the stator. The orange orange/black should come off the rear stator next to one set brown brown/yellow. In 1993 this was changed so both sets brown brown/yellow came off rear stator next to each other, and the orange orange/black wires come off the front. I have a 1992 motor and a 1992 powerpack. However, my charge coil wires are hooked up as in 1993 and later, the orange wires off the front and both sets brown in the back. I don't know what the significance of this is. The same stator part number is shown for both years so I don't know why wiring is different or if this will affect operation.<br /><br />My flywheel is only marked for number 1 cylinder. <br /><br />Would quick start be advancing my timing while trying to set max spark advance at cranking speed, WOT? This could account for part of the problem. How can I disable quick start?<br /><br />Thanks guys.

 

[Hooty]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

Yes. QuickStart can move your timing off 6 degrees. Clanton pointed that out on the 12th.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

When I originally worked with idle timing the motor was at operating temperature, so it shouldn't have been a factor. However while attempting to set max advance at cranking speed it probably is. How can I disable? Can't find anything in my book on how to do that.

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

^

 

[Heavyeight]

Re: Johnson 225 Ignition timing

I think I have figured out how to disable quick start. My manual indicates quick start and S.L.O.W. receive voltage from power coil. If I disconnect the power coil wires (orange, orange/black), will this disable quick start? Any problems with doing this? Will I still be able to generate a spark to set timing?<br /><br />Clanton, if you see this I would appreciate the bulletin you mentioned above from OMC on testing power coil. E-mail is heavyeight@aol.com.<br /><br />Thanks!