Just a little insight into the oil side of the VRO2/OMS

cfauvel

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2mins at idle does seem long but i suppose with carbs and lines to the carbs both full with premixed fuel perhaps it is enough time, but why not earlier is an unanswered question.
This 8192 seems to come from the past poster but im not sure where he got it from that that is the actual required figure, he may of set his equipment up for Q13, but perhaps the counter sets off the alarm at Q12 ie 4096



no if you look at the schematics of the electrical circuit within the VRO (posted as an attachment) you'll see that OMC is using Q7 and Q13 only.

definitely want to run pre-mix if testing the NO-OIL circuit....at least I would and the manual says to too
 

Bosunsmate

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no if you look at the schematics of the electrical circuit within the VRO (posted as an attachment) you'll see that OMC is using Q7 and Q13 only.

definitely want to run pre-mix if testing the NO-OIL circuit....at least I would and the manual says to too
oh yep, i see that. So why would Q7 not be the activator? Otherwise why is it there?
 

Fed

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By my reckoning a full count of 8192 would be shorter than the time it takes to empty the float bowls and even then the oil in the bowls doesn't instantly disappear instead it's slowly diluted as the bowl uses fuel/oil and is replaced by fuel only.
 

cfauvel

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By my reckoning a full count of 8192 would be shorter than the time it takes to empty the float bowls and even then the oil in the bowls doesn't instantly disappear instead it's slowly diluted as the bowl uses fuel/oil and is replaced by fuel only.



yeah if 8192 is the number of tach pulses and assuming that a pulse is directly associated to the number of magnets, then 8192 /6 is 1365 full revolutions of the crank...my motor runs about 1100 rpm at idle on muffs, so just slightly more than a minute...I imagine that the fuel bowls would last more than a minute..god I hope so ....do you know a way to know for sure?...

maybe start the motor on pre-mix and warm it up so that it immediately starts.
plug the gas inlet, disconnect the air pulse....and start the motor? that would be the fuel in the bowls and a little more in the 3/8" hose.

BTW not going to test that ...LOL
 

Fed

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Every pre-mix motor I've ever run dry by disconnection the fuel line has taken at least 3-4 minutes to empty the bowls, fuel lines, manifold & pump so the alarm would have to be beeping before you got down to raw fuel.
Safe as houses.
 

Bosunsmate

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The biggest risk seems to me to be at WOT when any operator hesitation to cut the engine would be much worse. Ive a 60hp which at WOT uses about 300mls per minute so by the time 20 seconds had passed for the alarm to go off plus 5 seconds or so to hear it and react then im pretty sure she would be hurting from raw fuel well entruely before then.
Theres no way my carbs or feeding fuel line have over 100mls capacity
 

cfauvel

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The biggest risk seems to me to be at WOT when any operator hesitation to cut the engine would be much worse. Ive a 60hp which at WOT uses about 300mls per minute so by the time 20 seconds had passed for the alarm to go off plus 5 seconds or so to hear it and react then im pretty sure she would be hurting from raw fuel well entruely before then.
Theres no way my carbs or feeding fuel line have over 100mls capacity


some fancy math needs to be used...
assuming 8192 is the number of pulses and assuming 6 pulses equals one rev(1365 revs for counter to reach 8192), how many seconds would 8192 pulses would happen at 5800rpm? (5800/60 seconds) 96 revs per second at that speed.....you'd reach 8192 in 14 seconds (1365/96)

how long can you run on the fuel bowl at WOT? that I don't know.....but in the 14 seconds you reach the counter to sound the horn...you have X amount of time in mixed fuel in the carb's bowls....

the low-oil circuit (if working properly...a float switch) should have warned you that your getting low way before you'd get the no-oil warning...

I don't see how you could get a no-oil situation though....a cut oil-line? crushed oil-line? internally I just don't see how it could happen...

have a gander at this http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/VRO.html

granted pre-mix is the safest....

how many people do premix on the newer two strokes? with four strokes it is easy...just be sure to do your oil change....

as far as other 2 -stroke oiling mechanism....I have no idea,,,,love to learn though.....none of them to my knowledge have the NO-oil feature....That's bad.
 

Bosunsmate

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Ive read that Continuous wave thing, he is blinded to his cause so much he shows it through some clear mistakes. He says that if an engine blows 2 of 6 pistons that it cant be a vros fault because every cylinder would fail. Thats so incorrect that its not worth in my opinion listening to another word he has written although i did read on and I read more things where he even contradicted himself but i will leave it at that, this isnt about him.

5800rpm is a lot of rpm, most i know max out circa 5000 which i put it at 20seconds but that doesnt matter so much anyway as a faster rpm engine would be sucking more fuel in faster anyway. Now for the unknown, my carb fuel bowls are like over 2/3rds filled up by the carb float and from other of these Johnson engines ive worked on i suspect they are all about that so there is not much capacity in there. At idle this doesnt matter so much with the butterflys closed and timing being the agitator, not fuel, which is the inverse at WOT. So considering the fuel lines are tiny, even a soda straw looks bigger then the capacity in the system looks like its in deficit to me in very short order
 

Bosunsmate

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the low-oil circuit (if working properly...a float switch) should have warned you that your getting low way before you'd get the no-oil warning...

I don't see how you could get a no-oil situation though....a cut oil-line? crushed oil-line? internally I just don't see how it could happen...
Im not sure what you mean by this, are you saying that there is no way the VRO can fail so this makes this whole thread and the electronic circuity to warn of a failure, a great example of a prank:drum:
 

cfauvel

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Im not sure what you mean by this, are you saying that there is no way the VRO can fail so this makes this whole thread and the electronic circuity to warn of a failure, a great example of a prank:drum:

if you are speaking to the oil side, then YES I find it VERY difficult to see how that can fail . What examples do you have that the OIL side has failed?.

can the air motor diaphragm rupture ? Yes, but then no fuel would get to the engine.

can the fuel pump diaphragm rupture? Yes, but then a lot less(or no) fuel would get to the engine.

IF the ruptures were such that the diaphragms did move then the oil piston would STILL pump oil into the mixture.

the no-oil electronics, in my opinion , was an addon by OMC to give people some peace of mind....

my thread was just an insight into a part of the VRO that MOST people have never seen. Have you ever taken the oil side off the vro before? Did you understand what the pin did? I didn't, but now I do.

(UPDATE 07/05/2017 -
later down the chain we came up with a few more possible , however remote, scenarios)
 
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cfauvel

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Ive read that Continuous wave thing, he is blinded to his cause so much he shows it through some clear mistakes. He says that if an engine blows 2 of 6 pistons that it cant be a vros fault because every cylinder would fail.

I don't understand how a VRO failure would affect 1 or 2 cylinders...if the VRO mixes fuel any where from 100:1 to 50:1, then all carbs are getting the same mixture....now if one or two carbs are out of wack and running lean, then that is the carbs fault not the vro.....you are going to have to explain your reasoning logically.


imagine you are the mixer...you put in the 50:1 into the tank.....if 1 or 2 cylinders melt....do you blame yourself?



5800rpm is a lot of rpm, most i know max out circa 5000 which i put it at 20seconds but that doesnt matter so much anyway as a faster rpm engine would be sucking more fuel in faster anyway
Per Evinrude the 1986 225hp has a range of 5000-6000, 5800 is within range.

at 5000 rpm, there are 83 revolutions in a second, Taking our 1365 revolutions that equal to the 8192 magic count....1365/83, the buzzer would sound in 16.4 seconds....

. Now for the unknown, my carb fuel bowls are like over 2/3rds filled up by the carb float and from other of these Johnson engines ive worked on i suspect they are all about that so there is not much capacity in there. At idle this doesnt matter so much with the butterflys closed and timing being the agitator, not fuel, which is the inverse at WOT. So considering the fuel lines are tiny, even a soda straw looks bigger then the capacity in the system looks like its in deficit to me in very short order
not following... 'agitator' ?

how long will the motor run at WOT assuming 5000 rpm, solely on the fuel in the bowls (that may or may not have the proper 50:1 mixture)

Again I just don't see how the oil side can ever have the no-oil situation under normal circumstances.
If the low-oil warning system was faulty (a user maintenance item), and the user continued to run the engine until there was no oil, then YES there could be a no-oil condition....AND IF the no-oil circuit was faulty and there WASN'T a broken tach lead, then YES THEN you could blame the vro for not warning you for the no-oil condition as the electronics is beyond your control....but surely SOME of the blame has to be yours for not doing due diligence to make sure your alarms are working and for not knowing/checking your oil level.

BUT if the low-oil system is working, you have more than 1/2 tank of oil in the reservoir and you have the proper oil lines and proper clamps.....HOW can there be a real no-oil condition....what would break to achieve that condition?
 
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Bosunsmate

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if you are speaking to the oil side, then YES I find it VERY difficult to see how that can fail . What examples do you have that the OIL side has failed?.

can the air motor diaphragm rupture ? Yes, but then no fuel would get to the engine.

can the fuel pump diaphragm rupture? Yes, but then a lot less(or no) fuel would get to the engine.

IF the ruptures were such that the diaphragms did move then the oil piston would STILL pump oil into the mixture.

the no-oil electronics, in my opinion , was an addon by OMC to give people some peace of mind....

my thread was just an insight into a part of the VRO that MOST people have never seen. Have you ever taken the oil side off the vro before? Did you understand what the pin did? I didn't, but now I do.
No ive never taken one apart which is why i enjoy reading this thread. Im just wondering why they would bother with all these electronics and the pin if there is no possibilty of a no oil situation. A simple warning that the tank is low would be a lot easier and just a low fuel pressure warning system as a redundancy.

I dont have any examples of the oil sde failing as ive never own one, but ive read a lot of people think that is what has happened to theirs and also many mechanics recommend removing them so either they are all wrong or something is being missed.
I will go back and have a look at the diagrams again after work today
 

Bosunsmate

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I don't understand how a VRO failure would affect 1 or 2 cylinders...if the VRO mixes fuel any where from 100:1 to 50:1, then all carbs are getting the same mixture....now if one or two carbs are out of wack and running lean, then that is the carbs fault not the vro.....you are going to have to explain your reasoning logically.
Sure this is easy. I have seen motors that have gone boom when run with no oil, they dont all go kaboom at exactly the same time, one cylinder fails first, then often another in short succession, the engine then often locks up and the other four on say a six cylinder therefore do not go boom or the engine is shut off and the other remaining ones survive this testing condition.
So to sum up why he is wrong is because not every piston bearing/wristpin is going to fail on exactly the same stroke when they end up running on no oil.
Now i can try and get into why, such as other cylinders absord the heat better but im sure thats not part of the question
 

Bosunsmate

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imagine you are the mixer...you put in the 50:1 into the tank.....if 1 or 2 cylinders melt....do you blame yourself?
This sounds like a crytic question but to answer, Well i would first find out the cause, i dont blame myself unnecessarily although i may think what did i do wrong, did i have a banana on the boat
 

Bosunsmate

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Per Evinrude the 1986 225hp has a range of 5000-6000, 5800 is within range.

at 5000 rpm, there are 83 revolutions in a second, Taking our 1365 revolutions that equal to the 8192 magic count....1365/83, the buzzer would sound in 16.4 seconds....
Well sure that just means the higher rpm means that you will use up more fuel and it thus also means after the buzzer sounds that you will also be sucking in raw fuel much quicker at WOT than at a lower rpm speed
 

cfauvel

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No ive never taken one apart which is why i enjoy reading this thread. Im just wondering why they would bother with all these electronics and the pin if there is no possibilty of a no oil situation. A simple warning that the tank is low would be a lot easier and just a low fuel pressure warning system as a redundancy.

I dont have any examples of the oil sde failing as ive never own one, but ive read a lot of people think that is what has happened to theirs and also many mechanics recommend removing them so either they are all wrong or something is being missed.
I will go back and have a look at the diagrams again after work today

I suspect the mechanics not fully understanding the VRO unit....I'll have to reach out to my well respected 80+ year old OMC guy....he kept up on all the bulletins when he was working....and went to all the OMC schools....not a shade tree mechanic.

I don't have the original 1984 VRO, which from what I understand was where the negativity came about. That version did not have the no-oil circuit.
So I cannot say for sure how they delivered the oil with Version 1....maybe they didn't use the oil-piston mechanism that they used since 1986. So when they re-designed it they figured we need to give the customers a peace of mind and give them a warning there is a NO -Oil condition....

Indeed just about every mechanic I've ever known has stated to "remove it"....I've been running the vro on my motor for 31 years (granted the current pump is at least 10 years old and not 31 years old....but I replaced it because I didn't know you could buy JUST the fuel pump seals and diaphragms,)..

recently tested the Low Oil - passed
This week I'll be testing the No-oil , proper draw of oil, video the re-set pin doing its thing, and even video the piston doing its thing without the electronics piece on.
 

Bosunsmate

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not following... 'agitator' ?

how long will the motor run at WOT assuming 5000 rpm, solely on the fuel in the bowls (that may or may not have the proper 50:1 mixture)

Again I just don't see how the oil side can ever have the no-oil situation under normal circumstances.
If the low-oil warning system was faulty (a user maintenance item), and the user continued to run the engine until there was no oil, then YES there could be a no-oil condition....AND IF the no-oil circuit was faulty and there WASN'T a broken tach lead, then YES THEN you could blame the vro for not warning you for the no-oil condition as the electronics is beyond your control....but surely SOME of the blame has to be yours for not doing due diligence to make sure your alarms are working and for not knowing/checking your oil level.

BUT if the low-oil system is working, you have more than 1/2 tank of oil in the reservoir and you have the proper oil lines and proper clamps.....HOW can there be a real no-oil condition....what would break to achieve that condition?

What im meaning there is that at low rpm the engine rpms is dictated mainly by timing, if timing is advanced then that agitates the system to increase rpm unlike at higher rpm where the main driver is dumping fuel into her
Sure i always check my alarms and id check the vro oil level if i have one, i even double check my oven is turned off at night so im not neglectful.
Well thats what im wanting to know, i dont believe the guy who said a no oil situation can not result in 2 out of six cylinders blowing and i hear all these people on here recommending they be removed as they think the VROs caused it, so i guess what you a saying is if i cant see a potential for a fault with it (or someone else, come on FED) then all these people a wrong,
i do like such challenges as this
 

Bosunsmate

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I suspect the mechanics not fully understanding the VRO unit....I'll have to reach out to my well respected 80+ year old OMC guy....he kept up on all the bulletins when he was working....and went to all the OMC schools....not a shade tree mechanic.

I don't have the original 1984 VRO, which from what I understand was where the negativity came about. That version did not have the no-oil circuit.
So I cannot say for sure how they delivered the oil with Version 1....maybe they didn't use the oil-piston mechanism that they used since 1986. So when they re-designed it they figured we need to give the customers a peace of mind and give them a warning there is a NO -Oil condition....

Indeed just about every mechanic I've ever known has stated to "remove it"....I've been running the vro on my motor for 31 years (granted the current pump is at least 10 years old and not 31 years old....but I replaced it because I didn't know you could buy JUST the fuel pump seals and diaphragms,)..

recently tested the Low Oil - passed
This week I'll be testing the No-oil , proper draw of oil, video the re-set pin doing its thing, and even video the piston doing its thing without the electronics piece on.
Oh this sounds good, i look forward to that.
You should do a documentary on it, and try and get mr 80+ to say some words, i think you get $1,000 for every 1million views so considering the amount of people out there this affects it could pay off
 

cfauvel

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to make money would be awesome LOL...

I was always too scared to take apart the VRO....but now that I have, not scared anymore.

I've got some videos on you tube in diagnosing my lean pop a few years ago....search CFAUVEL.....#4 was the ultimate fix....
 

Bosunsmate

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Lol yeah itd be nice if this site did too, but better taking money off google.
Yep, i will have a look, just got the finals of the Americas Cup to watch in a few minutes
I had a little look at a diagram (keep in mind ive never seen the parts with my own eyes, just diagrams) so so heres my first attempt at how a fail could happen.

A) A check valve goes bad, so it doesnt seal and fuel is pressed into the oil chamber and out competes the oil feed line via the fuel chamber, or a check valve is blocked from say a piece of o ring or hose or gunk in the oil, so oil cant get into the mixing chamber,
B) Theres a failure in the piston at the end, such as the seal it looks to have around its neck or its connection to the main push rod from the Airpump diaphram so that piston is pushed out of its bore, or falls out and into one of the chambers so that the oil chamber is overcome with raw fuel pressure.

Ok, the defences turn now :D
 
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