Just a little insight into the oil side of the VRO2/OMS

[Bosunsmate]

I dont think a v6 motor could last that at all, maybe half at the most
Surely this cant be the case, as far as im concerned the moment you start dumping fuel with low to no oil into a two stroke your bearings start blueing up and your rings and walls start scorching.

So whats going on, what have you found out here, these a not reassuring findings are they?

 

[Bosunsmate]

Have you being able to delineate where the grey tach wire to your helm originates from and if the one to the vro branches off from that or if suspected the VRO has a wire in from the rectifier feed circuit?

 

[cfauvel]

Have you being able to delineate where the grey tach wire to your helm originates from and if the one to the vro branches off from that or if suspected the VRO has a wire in from the rectifier feed circuit?

the grey wire for the VRO comes from the voltage regulator's distribution strip, it Ys to the VRO then to the big red plug, the other end of the big red plug is at the helm.

so both the VRO and Tach get the same grey wire, thus same pulses be it 6 or 2 per revolution....


Ok read some other regulator threads (Joe Reeves) and it seems that one of the two yellow leads from the recharging coil would have a grey subcolor. Yellow/grey...my new regulator and the one it replaced BOTH were full yellow.

IF the yellow/grey wire is meant for Tach, then I am leaning back to the pulses being 6...since the yellow/grey wire would be going to only one knob/coil . So as the magnets pass over the one coil it pulses and that pulse is captured in the regulator sent out the grey wire

 

[marty53]

Ive read that Continuous wave thing, he is blinded to his cause so much he shows it through some clear mistakes. He says that if an engine blows 2 of 6 pistons that it cant be a vros fault because every cylinder would fail. Thats so incorrect that its not worth in my opinion listening to another word he has written although i did read on and I read more things where he even contradicted himself but i will leave it at that, this isnt about him.

SO RIGHT. thought this every time I've seen that article linked

 

[Bosunsmate]

SO RIGHT. thought this every time I've seen that article linked

Thanks Marty, i went to myself what the hell is he on about when he preached that

 

[Bosunsmate]

the grey wire for the VRO comes from the voltage regulator's distribution strip, it Ys to the VRO then to the big red plug, the other end of the big red plug is at the helm.

Well i read this article Thanks iboats, heres a link http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...how-many-poles
It says its not to do with poles but is to with pulses. Im not sure yet why you get six pulses, what six pulses mean, and why then its not in practice 8195/6=1365
Maybe its 6 pulses per rev due to the six magnets which would make one suspect it to be 1365 but since you say it comes off the distribution strip then that is downstream of the diodes.
Perhaps this is where it converts due to the three diodes into a 2 pulse per rev, which then fits which what happens in practice and the maths. I need to or hopefully someone else can think about that one some more.
Struth this is becoming pandoras box!

 

[Bosunsmate]

And i also thought what if some poor bugger is reading this and thinking that this is not good for him/her and his coming up trips in his boat and is losing confidence in his kit from all these suppositions going on here. So i thought since this issue has being raised its only right that we try and think up a solution to it too.
So i was thinking that the way to do that since the tach signal and all that seem ok would be too do a change to the electronic circuit. Would a simple bridge from q13 to say q11 work to lower the required number of pulses before alarm?
That would make it 2048 which would make the alarm go off in a quarter of the time.
Perhaps OMC kept it higher at 8195 because they think there a times when the oil piston doesnt activate and they dont want false alarms but in doing so they put it far too high, just a thought

 

[cfauvel]

So i was thinking that the way to do that since the tach signal and all that seem ok would be too do a change to the electronic circuit. Would a simple bridge from q13 to say q11 work to lower the required number of pulses before alarm?
That would make it 2048 which would make the alarm go off in a quarter of the time.
Perhaps OMC kept it higher at 8195 because they think there a times when the oil piston doesnt activate and they dont want false alarms but in doing so they put it far too high, just a thought

Me and JBuote came to the same conclusion (offline) and rather than risk removing the potting to solder at Q11 a jumper to Q13, would be to have a small contraption inline at the plug that would take the tach signal and double, triple it, quadriple it via a dip switch that is user selectable.

Asking the Engineer to draw one out for us.

 

[cfauvel]

the grey wire for the VRO comes from the voltage regulator's distribution strip, it Ys to the VRO then to the big red plug, the other end of the big red plug is at the helm.

Well i read this article Thanks iboats, heres a link http://forums.iboats.com/forum/engin...how-many-poles
It says its not to do with poles but is to with pulses. Im not sure yet why you get six pulses, what six pulses mean, and why then its not in practice 8195/6=1365
Maybe its 6 pulses per rev due to the six magnets which would make one suspect it to be 1365 but since you say it comes off the distribution strip then that is downstream of the diodes.
Perhaps this is where it converts due to the three diodes into a 2 pulse per rev, which then fits which what happens in practice and the maths. I need to or hopefully someone else can think about that one some more.
Struth this is becoming pandoras box!

GRRRR are we back to 6 pulses then, because there are 6 magnets and each magnet has two poles...so 12 poles, 6 pulses? 1365 revolutions? LOL

but that doesn't jive with my test taking 3.72 minutes to fire the alarm.

ahhhhh


UPDATE: 07/24/2017 Evinrude rep on ENation stated that the programming of the no-oil has changed over the years and is more forgiving at idle...suggested I re-run the no-oil test at 1500 rpm....I ran the test at 2000 rpm...it took about a minute to sound this time.

 

[Bosunsmate]

Me and JBuote came to the same conclusion (offline) and rather than risk removing the potting to solder at Q11 a jumper to Q13, would be to have a small contraption inline at the plug that would take the tach signal and double, triple it, quadriple it via a dip switch that is user selectable.

Asking the Engineer to draw one out for us.

Good news, i look forward to this. I wonder if you increase the pulses that you might decrease the voltage and thus what the system reads, i have no idea on that so what engineer comes up with will explain that one.

I would of thought removing the potting and then like siliconing over would be within reasonable efforts but something inline would be much easier

 

[Bosunsmate]

GRRRR are we back to 6 pulses then, because there are 6 magnets and each magnet has two poles...so 12 poles, 6 pulses? 1365 revolutions? LOL

but that doesn't jive with my test taking 3.72 minutes to fire the alarm.

ahhhhh

Haha i think i know what you mean there.
It is a 12 pole and 6 pulse signal from the charging coil per rev but this then goes to the rectifier which has diodes.
Now consider that the charging circuit is linked to a 12v battery circuit it can then allow half the cycle to be blocked. Ie the battery can just be charged on the +ve side of the cycle, you dont need to worry about having more complicated components to allow the negative side of the AC cycle to be used to charge the battery because the battery will be able to handle any of the demands on it during this time of neg AC cycle.

So that could mean the diodes block out many of these pulses which would explain why it takes til 3.40mins secs to activate (unless of course the tach grey wire is connected upstream of the diodes, ie to one of those two yellow stator output wires)
And i agree, we know its 3.40 so just need to work back to uncover why that is so.
What needs to be firmed up is how many pulses per minute a on that grey line at approx the idle speed you used in that video, a strobe light with a rpm counter would do that, ive heard they exist. (i just saw a hand held one on line that isnt a strobe light its just a rpm counter that you wrap the pick up wire around the ht wire, but i suppose a tach signal would be to small to be picked up in such a reading machine

 

[Bosunsmate]

Also not sure why you would need a dip switch, if you branched the line to the tach off earlier, then the one to the vro would be best permanently changed i would of thought (after a good testing to ensure no false positive alarms)

 

[cfauvel]

if you branched the line to the tach off earlier than the one to the vro would be best permanently changed i would of thought (after a good testing to ensure no false positive alarms)

How would one get to the tach lead before the VRO? The yellow wires from stator go straight to the regulator, then out from the regulator is the grey wire and a single from the distribution strip out to the rest of the engine harness....you think there is another diode after the distribution strip on the grey wire?

Also not sure why you would need a dip switch,

so the user could decide how fast he wants his horn to blow....precisely for false positives.

maybe the user is fine with default settings, and some hi performance guy running tight tolerances wants it sound the horn in 1024 revolutions.

I thought about a simple circuit where I have the same IC chip , some LEDS of know colors that light up as the counter reaches say
1024, 2048,.4096 and a nice red at 8192

or LCD to actually show the count rising.

BTW using a DVA adapter the tach lead puts out 10-11 volts at the VRO....which is what to expect when testing the tach....HOWEVER I got that reading when the tachometer read 0, I didn't re-read the grey wire votls after the regulator was replaced.


I do have an extra OMC tach, that I can hook up inline at the vro pigtail to see what it reads there. If the pulses are NOT 6 there then I would expect the tach to read some off the wall number....

 

[Bosunsmate]

How would one get to the tach lead before the VRO? The yellow wires from stator go straight to the regulator, then out from the regulator is the grey wire and a single from the distribution strip out to the rest of the engine harness....you think there is another diode after the distribution strip on the grey wire?
\..

Is that grey wire leaving regulator (with i assume built in rectifier) then going to VRO and then to Helm? ( No i definitely dont think a diode on the grey wire once it leaves the rectifier)
Couldnt you just tap it from between Regulator and VRO, send one branch to helm and on the other branch put in the pulse manipulating device and send it on to VRO?

 

[Bosunsmate]

so the user could decide how fast he wants his horn to blow....precisely for false positives.

maybe the user is fine with default settings, and some hi performance guy running tight tolerances wants it sound the horn in 1024 revolutions.

I thought about a simple circuit where I have the same IC chip , some LEDS of know colors that light up as the counter reaches say
1024, 2048,.4096 and a nice red at 8192

or LCD to actually show the count rising.

BTW using a DVA adapter the tach lead puts out 10-11 volts at the VRO....which is what to expect when testing the tach....HOWEVER I got that reading when the tachometer read 0, I didn't re-read the grey wire votls after the regulator was replaced..

Alright got it, different strokes for different folks. LCD option would be my choice although it would keep my eye off the wheel a lot! That could let you know in time to turn back to the jetty.
If that is 12V DC at the tach lead then that makes sense. AC would mean its coming from upstream of the rectifier.

 

[Bosunsmate]

I do have an extra OMC tach, that I can hook up inline at the vro pigtail to see what it reads there. If the pulses are NOT 6 there then I would expect the tach to read some off the wall number....

This is where the ambiguity is so I need to be careful here.

Yes the OMC thing says 6pulses but remember this tach is made to work in a circuit in an OMC boat. So since it seems to be connected downstream of the rectifier then it might not be six pulses per rev reaching it, so just because it reads correct rpms if you install it there for your motor, that may not mean thats the actually number of pulses going into the Counter in the VRO. This is the only thing i can think of so far as to why things dont add up.

To further explain if you had a non omc tach that was a six pulse per rev one and you put it here it may have a different reading as it was not meant to be put downstream of a rectifier where as the OMC one has being made for that.
So although the OMC says its a six pulse per revoluton that may just refer to what is under the flywheel per rev, (Ie the six magnets etc which does make sense) but that is not actually what the tach gets sent per revolution after the recitifer. I think the tach gets 6pulses/3diodes= 2 pluses per rev and the tach then divides total pulses per minute by 2 to provide true rpm

 

[cfauvel]

Is that grey wire leaving regulator (with i assume built in rectifier) then going to VRO and then to Helm? ( No i definitely dont think a diode on the grey wire once it leaves the rectifier)
Couldnt you just tap it from between Regulator and VRO, send one branch to helm and on the other branch put in the pulse manipulating device and send it on to VRO?

the 4 wire pigtail to the VRO is the logical place to put the pulse manipulator...

I guess you COULD cut the grey wire just above the pigtail that would accomplish what you are suggesting....however I suspect that the pulse manipulator is going to need ground and possibly accessory power, so doing it in an inline gizmo makes sense as you'd have all the feeds you need.

 

[Bosunsmate]

So my only theory Ive got is to say that this is why it takes all that extra time for in practice the alarm to go off. The VRO is only getting two pulses per rev due to the diodes in the regulator whereas if the tach signal had instead being sourced directly from the flywheel, ie upstream of the rectifier, it would be getting the full six pulses per rev and then activating the alarm in a reasonable 1/3 of the current time that it took on yours.
From memory I think the older rectifiers had the tach line directly connected on to the yellow stator wires output, whereas the newer ones come out of the regulator/rectifier like you say, perhaps this is the cause of the problem

 

[cfauvel]

Alright got it, different strokes for different folks. LCD option would be my choice although it would keep my eye off the wheel a lot! That could let you know in time to turn back to the jetty.
If that is 12V DC at the tach lead then that makes sense. AC would mean its coming from upstream of the rectifier.

sorry misleading you....the LED/LCD gizmoe would be a tester for our edification to test the counter via the pulses outside of the VRO...it too would be an inline gizmo...it would either light up a particular color or show the actual count.....when the gizmo lights up red or shows 8192...the horn should blow, if it does then you know that both counters are working

if the horn never sounds then the counter or circuit in the VRO is faulty.

if the horn sounds LATER (significantly later not just a few seconds) then the pulse inside the vro's electronics is manipulated, but looking at the circuit diagram I don't think so

after the test the gizmo would be removed.

theoretically you COULD build a gauge for the counter for the helm...a new gauge that has a counter LCD, and solder a reset wire to run all the way back to the new gauge to reset ITS counter...it would be an additional gauge to the horn and the system check Check Engine Light .

 

[Bosunsmate]

theoretically you COULD build a gauge for the counter for the helm...a new gauge that has a counter LCD, and solder a reset wire to run all the way back to the new gauge to reset ITS counter...it would be an additional gauge to the horn and the system check Check Engine Light .

That would be a backup to the current system, redundancy in the system that is good engineering!
The main thing for me is that 8195 seems far too long and i think its getting possible with this diode thing to have a suspicion as to what may be going wrong to cause that and the 3mins40.
Woah, i better do some proper farm work, but im sure il be giving it some thought while im moving the stock around.