Laser as a rescue aid?

[RubberFrog]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

My apologies. I didn't realize your position was so tenuous, nor your sensitivities so fragile, that you couldn't withstand an alternate opinion.

Its not like this is a private forum, where you are whispering to a few buddies in the back corner. It's right out here in the open for anyone to comment on. That's how forums work.

I think we all saw your link to the lasr thingamajiggy. What aout that automotive "tornado" device, is that also legitimate simply because it is marketed?

PS: Rather than see you die in the sea, I would prefer that you would use a time tested rescue device such as a strobe beacon. How are you going to use a laser if you are unconscious?

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Let me point this out again - this is what you said after mentioning the new product. The point is that you were still discussing pinpoint lazer devices when you made the comment.

Personally, I'd rather run the risk of "temporarily blinding" a would-be rescue crew member (who then hollers out to the others that "somebody hit me with a laser from the southeast quadrant!") and let them yell at me AFTER I'm safely rescued!

I wonder if you have any idea how offensive that is to someone who flies, or has flown, search & rescue missions. Simply put, every time you launch, you risk your life. SARs are flown at low altitudes and there are a lot of distractions. Flying SAR missions is also very fatiguing, because doing so requires a lot of concentration. The fact of the matter is that the margin for error is slim and a momentary loss of vision, due to some idiot using a pinpoint lazer, might be all it takes to get a bunch of people killed.

I don't mind your curiosity about a particular thing, but I do mind the cavalier attitude about blinding a crew member and worrying about being chastised later. Perhaps you think this stuff is amusing, but as one who had to speak to family members just three days ago, after their brother lost his life on the water, I assure you that it is not. Further, most SAR missions occur precisely because people do dumb things and they often do them, after others with more experience in the matter tell them not to.



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[WAVENBYE2]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

With so many things on the market especially designed for water disasters, It's always a good idea to have more than one safety device in the boat anyway isn't it?? I know nothing about the ocean, but our lakes are just as deadly and having all the safety gear nowadays on the market, WE shouldn't be having as many fatalities that we do with all the technology available to us. Ignorance, stupidity, inconcideration, Lack of knowledge is the biggest killer of good people smart or dumb. I try very hard to always be prepared, not only for my own vessel but for others who are on the water too, First Aid kit.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Read posts #11 and #13.

I've seen it. And, having thought about it for a bit, I say "Ha!"

Here, let the website's own information prove the point against.. See the attached bmp.

At 16 miles, the beam has spread to 6000ft. This is the picture attached. Sounds good, right? Well, if you view the rest of the video you find out that during the day the effective range of the laser flare is only 3 miles.

So, at 3 miles the beam is quite a bit less spread out. Say about 1200 feet wide.

But wait, there's more. 3 miles happens to be the same effective range of a rescue strobe. So, now we can compare apples to apples. The laser covers a perimeter of 1200 feet wide at 3 miles. The strobe... covers 360 degrees at 3 miles. Now we are talking about a 'beam' covering the range of 99475.2ft!

1200 vs 99,475. Needing to be alert, looking for rescuers, be mostly uninjured, and to be good at aiming -vs- turn it on and let it strobe... Things in the woods will be more 'fluid' than things in the lab, I'd go with something that requires less effort, is simpler, and "shotguns" a bit.

To be fair, the strobe ONLY is effective to 6 miles at night, where the laser can go to about 20. I have no doubts that it can be seen at this distance (spread of 7500 foot or so..) What I am doubting is my ability to find my rescuers at this distance in order to be able to shoot the laser beam at them... Plus, I'd have to stay awake, etc. when it probably would be a good idea to rest..

Now, if I were in some sort of covert operation - where I wanted only the rescuer that I selected to be able to see me, and not to reveal my position to others who may be near by.. Then booyah! Go laser!


Of course, if you are set on the laser - go for it. I'm not saying it won't work. Just that the strobe is a better option in most cases based on the math and anticipation of additional issues (ie: injuries..) The laser would be a good additional measure (as opposed to a first/only one).

 

[v1_0]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Rubberfrog ? your opinion is just that? YOUR opinion. I did not quote you in my reply #18 and you had no reason to reply. I quoted V1_0 who quoted my FIRST post #1 and apparently didn?t read posts #11 and #13 before doing so. He hasn?t replied since.

Sure I read them. And compared the two - laser and strobe, in general at the time. The generalities remain - the laser is highly directional and requires more 'operator overhead' than a strobe. However, I did write another post based on the information from the posts you quoted.

I am not clinging to anything, especially after finding out about the rescue laser that is already being marketed, which IS safe and WON?T blind anyone. So the idea clearly has merit.

Well... I wouldn't trust the capitalistic system to evaluate ideas that much. It's up to you - after all, cigarettes were originally marketed as being GOOD for you (relieves stress) and help you live a longer life. Please don't overreact to that - I think that the laser thing is an OK idea! But I do want to make the point for not trusting the practice of capitalism to validate all of the things that it sells, nor to appeal to it as some sort of expert witness. After all, I believe that a study has shown that something like 97% of the people make decisions based on emotions and not reason. Decisions such as purchasing decisions...

I started this thread in hopes that we could all have a civil discussion about making every tool available to mariners in distress, the laser being just another tool.

Quite right. And with tools, there is a point in time where a hammer should be used and not a screwdriver. The tools have their strong points and weak points. Understanding this allows you to know when and where to use the correct tool. That is the point of my evaluation of the characteristics of the laser vs the strobe.

However, it has become clear that some folks on this thread think that it?s better for the mariner in trouble to die in the sea than to use a new and innovative tool or inconvenience someone else.

Your emotion is causing you to become dramatic. I feel your anger... yess. yess... pick up your light saber .. er.. laserthingi... and strike me down!!

Seriously, like anything else such a tool requires time to be used in real world situations by 'average' people. Then its uses and limitations - in a significant amount of real world situations - will be known. Over time, if it proves itself, it will wind up on the 'everybody must have this' list.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

I don't think the problem here is in the fact that someone has designed a lazer based signalling device. As long as it doesn't cause the problems associated with pinpoint type lazers, its just another tool in the signalling kit. That said, I would use it in combination with other devices, not as a single means of seeking help.

Like many tools, signalling devices need to be tested to determine effectiveness and safety. Fooling around with something that has not been tested can be dangerous on many levels. With the pinpoint lazers, the first problem is in the blinding characteristics of it. Other devices, which were not designed as a signaling device, may not be effective for that purpose and gambling your life on them is obviously a bad idea.

I tend to carry a variety of signalling devices in my boat. I have a flare gun, strobes, signalling mirrors, loud whistles, flashlights, etc. I also carry a couple of PFDs with signalling devices in the pockets - once again, strobes, signalling mirrors and whistles.

To me, the key to being seen is movement, or something that the eye perceives as movement, such as a flashing light. The reason for this is as I pointed out previously - the human eye detects an object in motion against a stationary background, better than it does a stationary object in the same environment. A flare shooting into the sky, a flashing strobe or light, etc., is more easily picked up than something that is steady state. That is not to say that a steady state signalling device will not work, but the movement improves effectiveness greatly.



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[lowkee]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

I wonder why they seemed to abandon the SOS morse code pattern from rescue aids. If I saw some laser getting aimed at me, I'm likely to pass by thinking it was some kid being annoying. Even a very fast SOS pattern (maybe lasting 1 second each), you would at least see it as something out of the ordinary.

 

[walt-oxie1]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

I would not go for a lazer that can cause temporary blindness to anybody, especially someone flying. You need something to draw attention to yourself and should carry as many options as possible. One thing to remember, they are not always seen. I had the motor die on me when I had just came in the inlet on an outgoing tide. I fired 3 flares and could see the Coast Guard station. I ended up calling a friend to find the Coast Guard's number. They came right out before I made it out the inlet. I learned to carry any and all communication and signaling device I can think of.

 

[v1_0]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

I would not go for a lazer that can cause temporary blindness to anybody, especially someone flying.

From the product manual:

This laser process machine is certified as a Class IIIa Laser Product to the requirements of the US Federal Product Performance Standard for Laser Products contained in the regulations in 21 CFR Subchapter J.

AVOID DIRECT EYE EXPOSURE TO THE BEAM.

This device should only be used to signal persons at a distance greater than 13 feet (4 meters).

oooo... Class III is "medium power" (1-5mw), and in general do represent a danger to the eye. I suspect that the laser has been 'detuned' somewhat in order to prevent this - as well as to increase the dispersion so that it isn't just a point of light at 16 miles..

 

[Cutter47]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Hello again: i was the one that originally posted to Google Rescue Laser Flare. I also own one and have it attached to my PFD, plus a Strobe (a firefly with sliding switch, in case I get hypothermic I don't have to use my fingers to turn it on, just use my hand over the slide switch to turn it on).

I have been in the Search and Rescue business for thirty years and here are my observations regarding getting spotted by a rescuer. This is not out of any type of manual, just my opinion.

Setting: dark night, 15knot winds, 2 to 3 ft waves (with whitecaps). The person in the water has a PFD on. (Remember he is showing his head and some of his shoulders)

1: No type of equipmenton PFD (strobe, flare, reflective material). The PIW is a needle in a hay stack. The odds of running the PIW over and finding him are about the same.

2: Reflective material on PFD ( the higher on the PFD the better) your odds go up to approx 70%. My spotlight may catch your reflective material.

3: Strobe light on your PFD and having it turned on. I will see it day or night you'll have a success rate of 99.5% if I am searching in the right area.

Equipment on Cutter: radar, spotlight, night vision binos, light sensetive binos, gyro stabilized binos, illumination flares and 3 searchers and the info I start with is your Last Known Position (wherever that came from )(eg: could be a boat launch). We are currently looking at FLIR systems but its at leat a couple of years down the road.

Now also remember the Cutter has to be navigated, and the crew has to hang on while searching. Then as the search progresses you have to worry about crew fatigue and how effective the crew is after fatigue sets in.

I'm not going to get into an arguement about I forgot this and forgot that regarding equipment and search patterns etc.

the bottom line is anything you can attach to your PFD that will help a rescuer find you then get it attached to your PFD, it may save your life.

On a side note: The Rescue laser works just fine and doesn't blind you. And you don't aim it you wiggle it to get more coverage. Kind of looks like a camera flash when being wiggled and yes I don't care who finds me when I'm in the water, boat, plane or chopper. Hense the reason for the rescue flare, if people are searching and I can see thery are not searching in the area where I am in the water then maybe I can get there attention with Rescue laser.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Cutter, good post and I think that you are dead on, in regard to everything that you said. Not surprising that we would agree, however, since I think we are the only folks contributing to the post, who actually have this type of experience - mine including airborne searches and yours apparently, surface based searches.

I'll also state once again, that I have no objection to lazer based signalling devices in general. My concern is for the original premise that use of pinpoint lazers might be appropriate.

One thing that I didn't get into in previous posts, is the difficuluty in picking out a person in the water v. large fish, flotsam, etc. This is particulalry true in regard to aerial searches. I can remember one search in particular, where we had scores of "sunfish" basking at the surface. I am not talking about the fresh water version of a sunfish, which is small in size. What I am speaking of, is a large saltwater fish that likes to bask in the sun and looks somewhat like a body, from a typical search pattern altitude.

Having to identify objects as "nonhuman" over and over is detrimental to a search for a couple of reasons - first that it is fatiguing and second, that it creates a very subtle tendency to believe everything in the search area, is something other than the person being looked for. That creates mental fatigue, which is as bad as physical fatigue.

As you have pointed out quite well, the key is in being seen and recognised as a survivor. Use of a signalling device that has been tested and shown to be effective, is a huge part of that outcome being achieved.



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[Cutter47]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Thanks Jay, you also make some good points. I don't think people on here realize just how hard it is to pick out someone in the water even at the best of times. Maybe another thread sometimes.. don't want to hijack this one.

BACK TO THE LASER TALK....LOL

 

[captharv]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Here in central florida, about 2 years ago, a couple of kids thought it would be fun to take a laser pointer and shine it on a cop. They were about 100' away and partially hidden behind some trees. When the cop saw the laser on him, he reacted by drawing his weapon and shooting at the kids. Got one in the arm. The cop was not held to be at fault.
Now, besides the reasons above, what do you think would happened if while thinking its the CG helo, it was an armed military aircraft? Would he "return fire"? I would not want to find out.
As one who was in the CG auxiliary and did actually look for epople in the water here's what I recommend for your lifejacket. In 2' seas, a persons head above water is visible maybe 300 yards, and only if you are looking for that. So, you want to make a multimedia presentation to help te rescuer find you.
Now, what is assumed here is you did a radio and/or EPIRB notifiaction and they are trying to find exactly where you are. So, maybe we are thinking 3-4 miles.
A mirror. The military signal one have a gizmo in the center where a white dot appears. If you move teh mirror around, and put the dot on whatever you are trying to attract, the mirror shines there. Sort of a aiming device. Only useful during the day.
A strobe. There are some waterproof reliable ones on the market under $30. And change the batteries once a year.
A whistle, sports style. Useful at night for determining what direction you are from them.

 

[BWR1953]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Hello again: i was the one that originally posted to Google Rescue Laser Flare. I also own one and have it attached to my PFD, plus a Strobe (a firefly with sliding switch, in case I get hypothermic I don't have to use my fingers to turn it on, just use my hand over the slide switch to turn it on).

I have been in the Search and Rescue business for thirty years and here are my observations regarding getting spotted by a rescuer. This is not out of any type of manual, just my opinion.

Setting: dark night, 15knot winds, 2 to 3 ft waves (with whitecaps). The person in the water has a PFD on. (Remember he is showing his head and some of his shoulders)

1: No type of equipmenton PFD (strobe, flare, reflective material). The PIW is a needle in a hay stack. The odds of running the PIW over and finding him are about the same.

2: Reflective material on PFD ( the higher on the PFD the better) your odds go up to approx 70%. My spotlight may catch your reflective material.

3: Strobe light on your PFD and having it turned on. I will see it day or night you'll have a success rate of 99.5% if I am searching in the right area.

Equipment on Cutter: radar, spotlight, night vision binos, light sensetive binos, gyro stabilized binos, illumination flares and 3 searchers and the info I start with is your Last Known Position (wherever that came from )(eg: could be a boat launch). We are currently looking at FLIR systems but its at leat a couple of years down the road.

Now also remember the Cutter has to be navigated, and the crew has to hang on while searching. Then as the search progresses you have to worry about crew fatigue and how effective the crew is after fatigue sets in.

I'm not going to get into an arguement about I forgot this and forgot that regarding equipment and search patterns etc.

the bottom line is anything you can attach to your PFD that will help a rescuer find you then get it attached to your PFD, it may save your life.

On a side note: The Rescue laser works just fine and doesn't blind you. And you don't aim it you wiggle it to get more coverage. Kind of looks like a camera flash when being wiggled and yes I don't care who finds me when I'm in the water, boat, plane or chopper. Hense the reason for the rescue flare, if people are searching and I can see thery are not searching in the area where I am in the water then maybe I can get there attention with Rescue laser.

Thank you for the info. The whole point I was trying to make is that it if a new tool becomes available that enhances the chances of a successful rescue, I want one. The standard and OBVIOUS stuff doesn't need to be restated or rehashed, like EPIRB, mirrors, smoke, etc., etc.

And while there are many who get in trouble on the water after doing something dumb or foolish (I've witnessed those myself) that doesn't mean that EVERYONE in trouble hasn't done everything right and still had problems. It happens. And adding one more tool to the rescue arsenal would seem prudent to me.

 

[captharv]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

As one who was in the CG auxiliary and did actually look for people in the water with a lifejacket. In 2' seas, a persons head above water is visible maybe 200 yards, and only if you are looking for that. So, you want to make a multimedia presentation to help te rescuer find you.

Now, what is assumed here is you did a radio and/or EPIRB notifiaction and they are trying to find exactly where you are. So, maybe we are thinking 3-4 miles. And, you can see or hear them.
A mirror. The military signal one have a gizmo in the center where a white dot appears. If you move teh mirror around, and put the dot on whatever you are trying to attract, the mirror shines there. Sort of a aiming device. Very useful during the day.
A strobe. There are some waterproof reliable ones on the market under $30. Buy one which uses regular alkaline batteries, so it would be economical to change the batteries once a year.
A whistle, sports style. Useful at night for what direction you are from them. And hearing it says distress.
For diving a device is sold which is a plastic tube. You blow it up and its 4' long, bright orange and has regflective material. Hold this up and you can be seen much farther away.

 

[WAVENBYE2]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

And adding one more tool to the rescue arsenal would seem prudent to me.

Not being sarcastic in any way, If you buy one, Let us know what you think of the product (Honestly).

 

[BWR1953]

Re: Laser as a rescue aid?

Not being sarcastic in any way, If you buy one, Let us know what you think of the product (Honestly).

Will do.