Life vest questions

[ajgraz]

Re: Life vest questions

You've given us data for your buddy and for you.

Hydrostatic weighing can give a body density measurement as follows:

Dbody/Dwater = Wbody/(Wbody-Wimmersedbody)

or

Dbody = Dwater*Wbody/(Wbody-Wimmersedbody)

Assuming we're talking about fresh water in your immersion pool, Dwater is 1g/cc. Since the Wbody and Wimmersedbody units will cancel, it doesn't matter if they are in lbs, kgs, or stones.

So let's plug in some numbers:

Dbodybuddy = 1g/cc*(165lb/(165lb-19lb)) = 1.13g/cc

Dbodyyou = 1g/cc*(325lb/(325lb-216lb)) = 2.98g/cc

Lean body tissue has a density around 1.1 g/cc; so your buddy's number passes the sniff test so far, but yours does not. Not even close.

Now, plugging those body density figures into Brozek and Siri formulae for determining body fat percentage (models have a +/-10% accuracy):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage

Brozek formula: BF = (4.57/ρ − 4.142) ? 100
Siri formula is: BF = (4.95/ρ − 4.50) ? 100

Your buddy has a body fat percentage somewhere between -10% and -12%. Ok, there's +/-10% error in the model, your buddy may be extremely lean, I'm wondering if he had a lungful of air, and if you subtracted the weight of the sling in the immersed weighing, etc., etc. In any case, this is somewhere near the bleeding edge of potential reasonableness, and it looks like he's gonna live if strapped to a life jacket.

According to these formulae, you have a body fat percentage of somewhere between -260% and -280%. No friggin' way.

So unless you had 5 bowling balls for breakfast that morning, or your bones are made of depleted uranium, or you have a prosthetic limb made of lead, or you are an android, or your immersion pool was filled with something far less dense than water, or you're off by a decimal place, your numbers are simply impossible.

If your numbers are correct, call Stan Lee and get on that Superhumans show. And strap an 8-man liferaft to your back because that's the only thing gonna save you.

 

[drrpm]

Re: Life vest questions

There is no way a 6'3'' man with a 60 inch chest only displaces 109 lbs of water. Given those measurements, I'd estimate a total body volume of at least 5 cubic feet. Water weighs 60 lb/cuft so that's a minimum of 300 lbs of water displacement and that leaves at most another 25 lb which needs to be floated.

 

[mudslinging79]

Re: Life vest questions

must be the antinium infused skelital structure, anyway i was thinking, what about the older style mae west style set ups... figure they had to fit over the bombers flight suits, flak jackets and whatnot...

 

[2ndtry]

Re: Life vest questions

Regardless of your buoyancy issues, please be very careful about using a harness and line. I personally would NOT attach myself to the boat with anything. If I fall out of the boat and its still moving (or sinking), only bad things can happen.

 

[26aftcab454]

Re: Life vest questions

There is no way a 6'3'' man with a 60 inch chest only displaces 109 lbs of water. Given those measurements, I'd estimate a total body volume of at least 5 cubic feet. Water weighs 60 lb/cuft so that's a minimum of 300 lbs of water displacement and that leaves at most another 25 lb which needs to be floated.

I am 6'2" 359lbs 58" chest and float pretty dang well-i was a lifeguard in high school. i buy off the shelf ski type vest and have no problems floating.

I went offshore fishing in alaska this year and the boat had a commercial type vest with 3 sections and long straps that would fit alot larger person than myself.

one thing I have read is if you fall over and are too big/tierd to pull yourself up is to use the outboard /outdrive trailer tilt switch on the transom to lower drive all way down-put feet on cavitation plate-flip swutch up to raise yourself out of water & climb in boat.

provided your kill switch lanyard was hooked on to ya-good luck!
-Joe

 

[vintageglass]

Re: Life vest questions

Finding a life vest to fit me without a winter jacket has been accomplished, but it's about worthless on days like today when the temp never topped 31 degrees. The water temp is in the mid to high 40's here.

The horse scale hangs from a boom, the scale is digital and is inbetween the boom and the harness. All I did was to hang the harness in the water, zero the scale, then put my feet into a loop I had tied in it. My head was above the water, the water at my chin. The water is salted to some degree I believe, not sure why but I assume its for medical purposes for the animals.
It was the only indoor pool I had access to.

I did try the new vest yesterday, with me wearing a pair of Grunden rain bibs, a junk pair of boots, and only the vest over a T shirt, the 7X vest would hold me afloat but only barely and if I didn't move around. It floated me with only half my face out of the water. If I moved or raised my head I sank below the surface. How far down I'd go I didn't try, but to me, anything below the surface is the same as dead if you unconscious.

I normally wear a 2xl winter coat, I'm not that big and not all that fat. With no gear on at all, I can walk to the deep end of a swimming pool with no buoyancy. I've been to the following places to find a winter rated vest or jacket, West Marine, ****'s Sporting Goods, 7 different marinas and stores, two dive shops, one commercial fishing supplier and I've emailed and left messages to Stearns and Mustang with no replies in over a week.
Calls to several sellers pretty much told me they only order what sells and no one could see any other options.

Half of my reasons for this post were to find a vest that would keep me legal on the water in NY, so far, unless I was to wear only a life vest, I've not found any options that work. The 7X vest I ordered would work to some degree in the summer, although it's got a huge winter collar on it and some added wind break material which would most likely be super hot in the summer.

A good part of my concern is that I'd not be able to pull myself easily into a boat these days not due to my size or weight but due to a combination of old injuries and arthritis. I have limited use of one knee and have both ankles fused along with an inoperable hernia. I wasn't much smaller even when I was in younger and in shape, but as I approach 50, I'm by far not as capable as I once was. No doubt an unexpected dunk in frigid water wouldn't help much either.

I own several boats, and have fished and boated since I was 10. The cost of fuel has no doubt moved me to smaller boats, taking away some of the safety net that a larger boat provides. Living these days on a limited income, I can no longer afford the $1000 trips out to sea fishing. I spend most of my time fishing from a 16' boat or smaller. Several buddies however have larger center console boats, in which I feel less secure than in my own boat since they have a very low gunwale height.

If I were to go into the water, most likely my legs couldn't do much to propel me or allow me to tread water. I have trouble walking in deep water after a few seconds as legs get numb from either the temp or water pressure.

So far I've seen or found nothing that would suffice as a legal personal flotation device that I could wear in frigid weather and still be able to move and function. Price hasn't been that much of a consideration that way.
The 7X vest provides 43lbs of flotation according to Stearns. They don't publish an advertised weight for some reason, the vest itself comes with a tag. Using that as a guideline, I would need a vest in the 10X size with about 60lbs of flotation to work properly.

One big concern is that the crotch straps are highly required to keep the vest down, otherwise it pulls itself over my head or bunches up under my arms allowing my head to fall below the water.

I think part of my problem is that I can't seem to lay back in the water, my legs pull me down, when I'm in the water, even with this vest on, it feels like I've got concrete blocks tied to my legs. I find it almost impossible to even bring my knees up even while holding onto a rope or the edge. The best flotation I've ever experienced in the water was simply using a tractor inner tube and pulling myself up through it with it under my arms.

I have no idea what my body fat percentage is, I suppose it's pretty high these days as I simply can't be as active as I once was.
I am in no way muscular or fit, but I wouldn't say I'm overly fat either. Just big. My chest size is still far larger than my gut, my pant size hasn't changed but a size or two over the last 30 years, and my inability to float is not new, I was just more able to overcome it with vigorous swimming when I was younger. I was never one to go in the water for pleasure, that's why I own a boat. I doubt if this whole conversation would have ever come up if NY didn't make life vests mandatory. Also, to me, it makes little sense to spend $400 on a life vest or jacket that don't work. If I'm going to spend that kind of cash, it had darn well keep me afloat.

Another question, do life vests expire or lose their buoyancy over time?
The foam in the older vests is a yellowish looking stacked layer foam, it's very dense and more rubbery than what is in newer vests. The older vests are about 15 years old, and have been well stored in a closet, not outdoors.

 

[26aftcab454]

Re: Life vest questions

the life vest-like everything else, floats buy displacing water. It does not matter if it is under a jacket or rain slicker.

 

[jayhanig]

Re: Life vest questions

F

I normally wear a 2xl winter coat, I'm not that big and not all that fat.

And yet you claim you have a 60" chest. I've come to the conclusion I've been trolled. Better men than you have done so, so don't gloat.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: Life vest questions

Not sure I follow you, what's trolled???

I normally wear a Carhart 2xl winter jacket, the tag reads sizes 54-58, it fits me fine, I also have a few 3xl jackets which I wear when its real cold as I tend to wear a few layers under them. I get 59 1/2" when measured under my arms. I'm getting the impression that they size life vests like they size sneakers or running shoes? I wear a size 13 double wide work boot, yet need a size 17W New Balance running shoe. It seems not everyone uses the same type of measurement or something is lost in the translation from Chinese.

I was in NY on Saturday and stopped by a shop there that had a pretty decent selection of jackets, vests, and inflatables in stock. I tried on a 3xl Mustang jacket, which is the largest they make in a jacket according to the catalog he showed me. The 3xl felt about like me trying on a medium or large winter jacket, I could barely get both arms into it, and there was no way it would close. It wouldn't even go all the way on my arms. The only choice seems to be a commercial inflatable, which I bought. How much flotation it offers me is yet to be seen but it's the only option to be legal in NY, whether or not it actually will keep me afloat. I've yet to get any reply from either Stearns or Mustang, it's been several weeks and several emails now.
The inflatable was just over $300, plus I bought a belt pack as well. I would have rather had a jacket but I have no idea as to how they figure the sizing?
The bomber style jacket was better than the longer version but neither one would come close to fitting me. Even the guy that sold them was surprised as he himself tried it on and it was super tight and he said he wore a medium jacket which was issued to him in the CG.

Again, I'm no lightweight but not grossly overweight either. Any extra weight I carry is around my gut, not my shoulders or arms so much. While I was there I also looked at a few pair of winter gloves for use on the boat, the type missing a few finger tips, again, nothing close to getting my hand into.
It seems everything fishing and boating related these days is sized for guys half my size.

I did buy a rain suit, not sure of the brand, it was marked down to $20, it's a knock off of a Grundens type coverall with suspenders and a jacket, that was marked XL, and it's even a bit big on me even over an insulated flannel shirt and sweatshirt. I think they were blowing them out since they were all white vs. orange or yellow? The white ones have reflective tape on the sleeves, hood, waste, and down the legs. I figured that the rain jacket may also make a good windbreaker if worn under the inflatable vest.
I have some concerns about the automatic inflating vest on rainy days, I've heard of them inflating accidentally when just stored onboard in a fish box, so what about wet weather?
Go figure, maybe whoever made the rain suit needs to make life vests.

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Life vest questions

Why not just switch to ice fishing? Cut a hole, sit in a shelter and be done with it. Or just order fish off of the menu...

 

[Stachi]

Re: Life vest questions

not to be rude ...but , maybe its time to consider a diet...??

 

[NYBo]

Re: Life vest questions

not to be rude ...but , maybe its time to consider a diet...??

Losing body fat, while making it easier to find a vest that fits, will make te flotation situation worse, since fat is less dense than water.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: Life vest questions

not to be rude ...but , maybe its time to consider a diet...??

From what I've seen with these life vests, I don't think that would help much. At the very best I could maybe loose a bit and get down to the next jacket size but even so if 7XL vest barely fits me with no jacket, even dropping 60 or so lbs would help. The 7XL vest won't even fit a buddy of mine who is only around 200lbs or so. It won't fit over a winter coat.

I keep getting told that fat adds buoyancy, if that much of my size and weight were fat, then I'd float like a cork.
I talked to someone at the marine police, who was far larger in size than me but a lot shorter, and was told that they issued him an inflatable vest, one made by Stearn's just for law enforcement, but he also said he floats in the water. He also said that they do occasionally inflate on their own in wet weather or if stowed onboard where it gets wet.
I may have to settle for a manual inflatable vest since it seems to be the only thing made to go over winter clothing. I'd far rather have preferred to find a jacket type PFD but all that I've seen are too small or offer too little flotation.
I still have no clue as to how they figure the marked size on these things. I would think that at least the Jacket types would be sized similar to regular winter coats, but that's not the case. I'm mostly comparing the sizing to Carhart coats and similar since that's what I mostly wear. Which I'm told is probably the worst thing to wear on the water as they hold water weight when soaked. My 2xl Carhart coat probably weighs near 50lbs when soaking wet.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: Life vest questions

Just an update here, It appears that inflatable vests are not acceptable PFDs in NY to meet the legal requirement for boats under 21', Nov to Mar. I was warned this weekend by a marine patrol that I was not wearing an approved vest. When I asked where in hell I could find a regular vest to fit over my jacket that wasn't inflatable and I was told that it wasn't their problem and if he saw me out again with no vest I'd be ticketed. So much for the inflatable vest. He also made it clear that a Mustang jacket is also not legal to meet the cold weather vest law.
I tried to put on one of those square type orange vests but it wouldn't fit around my jacket or hood. Maybe I'll just duct tape it to my back. The law don't say how it's to be worn, just that it must be worn and be a non inflatable life jacket or vest.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Life vest questions

That LEO is dead wrong. As long as it's being worn, a CG-approved inflatable is absolutely legal.

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/recreation/boating/navigation-law.aspx

Navigation Law Updates
Life Jacket Wear Requirements
Beginning November 1, 2009, Section 40, Subdivision 1 of the Navigation Law shall be amended by adding new paragraph (e), which reads as follows:

No owner or operator of a pleasure vessel less than twenty-one feet, including rowboats, canoes, and kayaks shall permit its operation, between November first and May first, unless each person on board such vessel is wearing a securely fastened United States Coast Guard approved wearable personal flotation device of an appropriate size when such vessel is underway.

Failure to wear a lifejacket on such vessels will be considered a violation under Section 73-c if the Navigation Law and is punishable by a fine of not less than $25 nor more than $100, applicable to either the operator and/or the owner of the vessel.

An inflatable vest is most definitely an approved flotation device as long as it's being worn. And here's section 40, subdivision 1 of the law (which was amended by the provision above)

http://www.nyss.com/NYS.html#p40

? 40. Equipment.Equipment required herein shall be carried on every vessel except as otherwise provided, while underway, or at anchor with any person aboard, while on the navigable waters of the state and any tidewaters bordering on or lying within the boundaries of Nassau and Suffolk counties. Should the federal government adopt vessel equipment requirements different from those contained in this section, the commissioner shall be authorized to adopt rules and regulations superceding the vessel equipment requirements of this section to achieve consistency with federal standards, and shall submit such proposed rules and regulations to the secretary of state in accordance with the state administrative procedure act within thirty days of the adoption of federal equipment requirements or submit a statement as to why such conforming changes are not being proposed.
1. personal flotation devices.
(a) Every pleasure vessel and every rowboat and canoe shall have at least one wearable personal flotation device for each person on board, which shall be of a type approved by the United States coast guard and shall be in good condition.
(b) Pleasure vessels sixteen feet and greater in length shall carry at least one type IV throwable personal flotation device which shall be of a type approved by the United States coast guard and shall be in good condition.
(c) Every operator or person in charge or control of a pleasure vessel, rowboat or canoe, as described in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this subdivision, shall be responsible for compliance with the provisions of this subdivision.
(d) No person shall operate a vessel of Class A, one, two or three as classified and defined in subdivision one of section forty-three of this article or a rowboat or canoe, nor shall the owner of such vessel while on board such vessel knowingly permit its operation, unless each person on such vessel under the age of twelve is wearing a securely fastened United States Coast Guard approved wearable personal flotation device of an appropriate size when said vessel is underway. The provisions of this paragraph shall not apply to any person on such vessel under the age of twelve who is within a fully enclosed cabin.

Nowhere, in either the statute or amendment, is there any prohibition against inflatable pfd's.

My .02

 

[ajgraz]

Re: Life vest questions

Your LEO is probably living in the past, before inflatables were OK'd by the USCG. Good article on this and inflatables' performance:
http://www.boatus.com/foundation/Findings/Inflatablepfd.htm

I'd still like to see the OP re-take the underwater weighing test, because I still say his numbers are impossible.

 

[vintageglass]

Re: Life vest questions

I have no idea what the LEO's problem was. A call to the CG says I was legal. My inflatable vest isn't bright orange, maybe that's what made him think it wasn't legal? (I've yet to find any larger vests in anything but blue for some reason, they make them but no one stocks or carries them locally).

I still have never received a response from either Mustang or Stearn's to any of my emails about finding a winter life vest or jacket to fit. Not even an automated response.

I also can't understand why they don't list the amount of buoyancy on each life jacket? I have no idea what the exact buoyancy of the Stearn's vest I bought is, nor the SOSpender's inflatable.

What I weigh in the water is pretty much of no real value, all I need to know is that the vest I wear will float me.

I've got a buddy that floats that just can't understand why or how I can hit the bottom in a pool. He has to struggle to get down to the bottom of a 10' pool, I have to struggle to stay on the surface. He can lay back and float all day with no vest at all, I can't do that with a vest on.
I have no idea as to why I don't float, I do not have a muscular build, while I am strong and have worked fairly physical type jobs all my life, I am not 'fat' other than a few extra inches of beer gut, and I am 6' 3" tall. A diet probably wouldn't hurt me but that won't solve my buoyancy issues, it would most likely make matters worse. At best I could maybe get down to about 240lbs due to my build, and at that I doubt if I'd feel right or healthy. (When I was 22, I had a size 28 waste and weighed 242lbs and I looked like a bean pole, I couldn't float then either).

I'd be more than willing to work with any company that was willing to make a life vest to both fit and float me, I can't be the only one out here that doesn't float?