Long run of battery cable... AWG?

[mark1905]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Ayuh,.... Everything needs a ground,... but not Switched....

Whoops.. I read the response too quickly.. :facepalm:

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Thank you Bruce, Bondo, and Mark! I am in the process of making the changes as we speak. The switches are illuminated so they will have a ground running to the block. Also if i take the illumination power from each switch and tie it into the ON power for nave lighting of the 3 position switch then the switches wont illuminated until the nav lights are turn on, correct?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Also if i take the illumination power from each switch and tie it into the ON power for nave lighting of the 3 position switch then the switches wont illuminated until the nav lights are turn on, correct?

If your particular switch has a seperate power input just for the illumination, that is correct. Most switches that I use don't iluminate until you turn them on so they don't have seperate illumination inputs.

I like having my switches illuminate when they are turned on. That way I know they are turned on.

 

[Don S]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

What is the purpose of the Master Power Switch with the green wire running to it in your diagram from post #12 ? You have a 60A breaker feeding the fuse panel, and as near as I can figure, your switch is going to be a 10 or 15A switch at best. Will never handle the amperage.
You have the main battery switch, isn't that enough?

One other question, with all this big heavy wiring, high amperage fuses etc. you do realize you don't have the charging ability from your engine to cover all that stuff. The charging output is probably 10A or less, I'm not really that familiar with OMC outboards. You are building in a lot of ways of using electricity, just no way to put it back.

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

@Bruce: The switches glow white when off and glow red when switched on :facepalm:... mistake when i purchased and is turning into a hassle. Basically there are two terminals on the back of each switch whether its SPST or DPDT that operates the illumination circuit. I am trying to work with my mistake and wire them so they only glow when the nav lights are turned on at night. Todd4 posted an explanation of how to do this in my resto thread as i posted the original electrical questions there before turning to the electrical forum. I will post that information following this response.

@ Don S: Back when I was brainstorming my electrical plan Silvertip had made some suggestions to me.

Now then -- few devices you mention require heavy and more expensive 12 gauge wire. It is simply not necessary and you will find that it gets hard and bulky to deal with in tight spaces. This would be especially evident if you intend to wire gauges with 12 gauge wire. 16 gauge wire is capable of handling 18 amps which is more than any device you listed except perhaps the stereo and amp. Next -- as long as you have a dual battery switch, you do not DEDICATE anything to ANY battery. That's what the switch is for so you can SELECT which battery does what. You wire everything to the COM terminal on the switch including the engine. You now can start the engine from either or both batteries. Run everything from either or both batteries. And charge either or both batteries from the engine. It doesn't get any more versatile than that. Your idea of a MASTER switch at the helm is still a good one. Yes, the battery switch can kill everything but only if you have everything wired to the COM terminal. The master switch at the helm is wired so it shuts down power to the fuse/breaker panel this killing everything without having to fiddle with the battery switch. Why does the stereo need a separate on/off switch? It should have one on the face plate. Nav and Anchor lights need one switch but it needs to be a six terminal ON-OFF-ON variety.

So I am going with a master power helm switch to kill power to the fuse block but I was thinking my current switch is under rated for the job

As for the motor:

Your Evinrude is electric start and it has an alternator. If it has power trim it has a 12 amp output and if not, it has 6 amp output. Either way, the charging system will NOT keep two batteries topped off so you will need to charge them with an on-board or portable charge. You cannot see an alternator because it is part of the ignition system and is located under the flywheel.

So yes sir i understand that my motor will be unable to charge the batteries and plan on using a on board charger.

Thank you both for ur help! I am in the process of modifying my schematic as it has some big flaws.... Hopefully my next post will resolve all my issues. Stay tuned :facepalm: Please feel free to make suggestions or call me out on wrong doings as I trying to learn it all before undertaking the task. Plus you two are both respected members with valuable information! Thanks again

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Here is the information posted by Todd4:


Wired that way your switch will only glow red when powering your BOW light. It'll never glow white and it won't glow red when powering only your STERN light. Here's a write up I've worked on in WORD that might help explain it. I may be late to the party. Hope it doesn't confuse you MORE.



The full wiring diagram of your DPDT is wrong. The lights will never light.

Your 6 pole diagram is “OK” but the NAV and ANCHOR label on the SWITCH are reversed (conventionally, when the switch lever is up it powers the lower terminals – when the switch lever is down it powers the upper terminals). Just drives me nuts looking at it - other than that it CAN work the way it is. But.... I really like sqbtr’s idea of powering the switch from two feeds but a diagram would help to fully understand it – definitely worth exploring.

Explaining how the lights work in the switch will be fun, without confusing you more. First, totally ignore powering the NAV and STERN – you can use your 6 pole diagram later. Think of the two switch terminals top middle (12:00 o’clock) and bottom middle (6:00 o’clock) as an independent circuit within the switch itself - all those two terminals do is power the lights IN the switch – nothing more (no NAV, no STERN). So, first permanently ground the 6:00 o’clock terminal just as you would any other black ground wire on your boat (for example: on your fuse block, next to your cigarette lighter ground). Then, temporarily connect 12V power to the 12:00 o’clock terminal (directly to any positive battery post, for this demonstration). The switch will glow red when the lever is up; the switch will glow red when the lever is down; the switch will glow white when the lever is in the middle. (Yes, the switch is NOT turning anything on or off – keep ignoring that for a while). As long as power is going to the 12:00 o’clock terminal the switch will glow a color – ALWAYS. See the problem? No way to turn off the lights in the switch when wired like this. I’m obviously not recommending to hook the switch up this way – I’m simply explaining it’s operation.

As a slightly more complicated analogy: let’s hook your switch up to your car. IF you wired the 12:00 o’clock terminal to the headlights in your car (and grounded the 6:00 o’clock terminal) so the 12:00 o’clock terminal only saw power while the headlights were on - the switch would glow only when the headlights were on, and not when the headlights were off. Therefore, the switch would glow only in the dark when your headlights were on, but would NOT glow during the day when your headlights were off; and, more importantly, the switch would not glow while the car was parked with the headlights off – thus not draining the battery. This would be an acceptable way to light your switch in a car.

So, you need to decide how you want to power the lights IN your switch. If you want the switch constantly glowing whenever a battery is hooked up (day and night, engine running or not) – wire the 12:00 o’clock terminal on the switch to any positive on your fuse block. Then use your battery selector to turn the switch lights off for storage. How will you be powering the backlighting for the tach? Is it on all the time? Or only when the engine is actually running? Or do you have a separate backlight button for the tack (probably not)? You might be able to tie the switch light (12:00 o’clock terminal) into the tach’s backlighting circuit. Once you decide how you want to wire the lights in the switch then wire your NAV and STERN lights the way you have them wired in your 6 pole diagram above.

I still like sqbtr’s idea of wiring the STERN light off the “selected battery” or the house battery while anchored (night fishing) but I can’t figure that out without using a diode (sqbtr?). But, here is a way to wire the BOW NAV to the selected battery and the STERN NAV to the house battery and the STERN ANCHOR to the house battery (no BOW ANCHOR) . (I also ‘flipped’ it so your switch nameplate would be correct - sorry.)

SWITCH TERMINAL WIRE
CLOCK POSITION DESCRIPTION

12:00 – from 12V+ power for switch lights
1:30 - leave blank
3:00 – from 12V+ from selected battery (12V+ from fuse block)
4:30 – to 12V+ BOW light (NAV only)
6:00 – from 12V- for switch light (ground)
7:30 – Jumper to 11:30 terminal position
9:00 – from 12V+ from house battery
11:30 – to 12V+ to STERN light (ANCHOR and NAV)

OK - where di I make a mistake? LOL

Todd

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Of course you realize you don't have to wire them up so that they illuminate when off right?

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Of course you realize you don't have to wire them up so that they illuminate when off right?

Yes sir i do and it looks like i may be heading in that direction just for ease but i figured id explore the route of having them work like they should but only when the nav lights are flipped on. Its understanding how to do that which is proving difficult.


EDIT: I have an explaination of another set up by Todd4. Ill post that information

Hey, sqbtr, hooking up the DPDT lights to the ignition switch is a good idea, but only if he has an accessory position (like most cars do)or he'll only have lights to any of his switches when the ignition switch is left on (and engine electronics are charged up, constantly using power). I'd be interested in seeing the two battery source to the DPDT poles without a diode to prevent backfeeding through the wires. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just don't have my head around it.

Piece, the following comments are refering to the 2nd drawing in your Post # 356. I'll look at Post # 362 later.

Judging by the way you have it wired, I assume you’ll use your battery selector to select your house battery when floating with the lights on and also use the battery selector to turn off the entire FUSE BLOCK = all lights (switch lights, NAV, STERN, etc) and disable both SPSTs, when parked on the trailer.

As drawn, when you turn on your DPDT to NAV (BOW & STERN), assuming you have a battery selected to the FUSE BLOCK, you ‘ll make both SPST switches glow red or white, depending on their position = OK. But your DPDT will never glow white, nor will your DPDT glow red when switched to the ANCHOR position. Also when the DPDT is in the ANCHOR position (only the STERN is lit) you’ll have no lights to the SPST switches, but they will still operate the BILGE and INTERIOR lights.

Let's assume a battery is selected to the FUSE BLOCK: To make the DPDT glow white in the center lever position, and make the DPST glow red when NAV is selcted (like it does now), and make the DPDT glow red when ANCHOR is selected, and make the SPST1 & SPST2 lights glow ONLY when the DPDT light glows red (either NAV or ANCHOR is selected), but the SPSTs not glow when the DPDT is white, change the following (I'm using clock positions again):

Remove the jumper wire between the 10:30 DPDT to 12:00 DPDT terminals. Replace with a 9:00 DPDT to 12:00 DPDT jumper wire. (Now DPDT will glow red/white/red, depending on lever position, whenever the FUSE BLOCK is powered by the BATTERY SELECTOR.)
Remove both 12:00 DPDT wires going to SPST1 & SPDT2, from the 12:00 DPDT side only, and reconnect them to the 1:30 DPDT location, with the other wire ends still attached to same SPST1 & SPST2 locations. (Now SPST1 & SPST2 will glow when DPDT is red, lever either up or down, and the SPSTs will not glow when DPDT is white, center position, when NAV and ANCHOR are off during the day, but SPSTs will still power their accessories during the day).

Is this the operation you are looking for?

You’ll still have to rotate the NAV/ANCHOR nameplate 180 degress, OR (my preference) rotate the DPDT switch 180 degrees (during dash install) because when you flip the DPDT lever UP the switch connects the center power to the LOWER terminals, and when you flip the DPDT lever DOWN it connects the center power to the UPPER terminals. (It’s easier to rotate something than redraw all the wires like I incorrectly tried in my long post above.) (Most double throw switches work this way).

This is not easy to put into words, so ask a question if something isn’t clear.

Todd

Im sorry for the two threads of information. I do understand the no-no's of this but had it first under my restore thread and wasn't getting any hits so when to the electrical forum for more help. Again apologies

 

[Don S]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

There is nothing wrong with a main switch on a boat where the main battery switch is in the engine compartment under a deck, Since this is only a 15 ft boat, and the battery switch is going to be easily accessable, It just seems like a lot of extra things to go wrong.
But, since you want to use one, you are going to have to get a switch capable of handling 30+ amps, not just a little lighted toggle switch you have drawn. I'm not sure about the wiring to that switch either.

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

There is nothing wrong with a main switch on a boat where the main battery switch is in the engine compartment under a deck, Since this is only a 15 ft boat, and the battery switch is going to be easily accessable, It just seems like a lot of extra things to go wrong.
But, since you want to use one, you are going to have to get a switch capable of handling 30+ amps, not just a little lighted toggle switch you have drawn. I'm not sure about the wiring to that switch either.

I was looking into that last night. The master power may be going by the way side but trying to explore my options before i start the adventure. As always thank you sir!

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

My response to post #31

Judging by the way you have it wired, I assume you’ll use your battery selector to select your house battery when floating with the lights on and also use the battery selector to turn off the entire FUSE BLOCK = all lights (switch lights, NAV, STERN, etc) and disable both SPSTs, when parked on the trailer.

I had planned on adding a master power switch to the feeds going to the fuse block to kill fuse block power just in case the battery switch becomes neglected one late evening. There are a total of 4 of those switches as well... just put two in the drawing for time sake. They will operated the following: Bilge, Nav/Anchor, Interior lights, Master power. Then I also have a MOM ON-OFF-MOM ON that came with my CMC PT-130 TnT which I haven't even started to look into yet. Wanted to master the switches first.

As drawn, when you turn on your DPDT to NAV (BOW & STERN), assuming you have a battery selected to the FUSE BLOCK, you ‘ll make both SPST switches glow red or white, depending on their position = OK. But your DPDT will never glow white, nor will your DPDT glow red when switched to the ANCHOR position. Also when the DPDT is in the ANCHOR position (only the STERN is lit) you’ll have no lights to the SPST switches, but they will still operate the BILGE and INTERIOR lights.

My goal is to have all switches glow when NAV (both bow and stern lit) is on but when in ANCHOR ( just stern lit) i just want the DPDT switch to glow red with all other switches not glowing white or red. This will be the same operation as with the tach. Glowing when NAV lights on but in ANCHOR no glow. That way there is no draw on the battery (from the switch illumination that is) when anchored but have lights when underway at night.

Let's assume a battery is selected to the FUSE BLOCK: To make the DPDT glow white in the center lever position, and make the DPST glow red when NAV is selcted (like it does now), and make the DPDT glow red when ANCHOR is selected, and make the SPST1 & SPST2 lights glow ONLY when the DPDT light glows red (either NAV or ANCHOR is selected), but the SPSTs not glow when the DPDT is white, change the following (I'm using clock positions again):

Remove the jumper wire between the 10:30 DPDT to 12:00 DPDT terminals. Replace with a 9:00 DPDT to 12:00 DPDT jumper wire. (Now DPDT will glow red/white/red, depending on lever position, whenever the FUSE BLOCK is powered by the BATTERY SELECTOR.)
Remove both 12:00 DPDT wires going to SPST1 & SPDT2, from the 12:00 DPDT side only, and reconnect them to the 1:30 DPDT location, with the other wire ends still attached to same SPST1 & SPST2 locations. (Now SPST1 & SPST2 will glow when DPDT is red, lever either up or down, and the SPSTs will not glow when DPDT is white, center position, when NAV and ANCHOR are off during the day, but SPSTs will still power their accessories during the day).

Is this the operation you are looking for?

This is almost perfect for what im looking for! Thanks! The only little detail i would change is to have no switches glow in ANCHOR position except the red tip of the DPDT. Is this possible? and i guess it may not be a little detail.

You’ll still have to rotate the NAV/ANCHOR nameplate 180 degress, OR (my preference) rotate the DPDT switch 180 degrees (during dash install) because when you flip the DPDT lever UP the switch connects the center power to the LOWER terminals, and when you flip the DPDT lever DOWN it connects the center power to the UPPER terminals. (It’s easier to rotate something than redraw all the wires like I incorrectly tried in my long post above.) (Most double throw switches work this way).

I actually don't have a name plate yet soo Im good with whatever. Ill just label it after i wire it and see what works when i throw the switch. You are doing an amazing job explaining this. I honestly can't thank you enough. Let me know if ya need more details. I tried to break it all down in this post. Hope its a great thursday for ya!

Mark

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

and finally Todd's last response:

"This is almost perfect for what im looking for! Thanks! The only little detail i would change is to have no switches glow in ANCHOR position except the red tip of the DPDT. Is this possible? and i guess it may not be a little detail."

Ahhhh, I see what you're going for. I like it.
OK then, do everything I said in Post #363 (referring to 2nd drawing in Post #356), EXCEPT:

CHANGE THIS - Remove both 12:00 DPDT wires going to SPST1 & SPST2, from the 12:00 DPDT side only, and reconnect them to the 1:30 DPDT location, with the other wire ends still attached to same SPST1 & SPST2 locations.

TO THIS - Remove both 12:00 DPDT wires going to SPST1 & SPST2, from the 12:00 DPDT side only, and reconnect them to the 10:30 DPDT location, with the other wire ends still attached to same SPST1 & SPST2 locations.

Now your SPSTs will only glow while the DPDT is in NAV, but the SPSTs will be dark when the DPDT is in ANCHOR.

Maybe I shouldn't go here, but...... as long as we're at it, you have both of these SPST wires run in parallel. You can simplify this by running just one wire in series and accomplish the same thing (since the SPST switch lights draw minimal power while glowing). i.e. run just one wire from 10:30 SPST2 to 10:30 SPST1 to 10:30 DPDT. Note I incorporated the latest change in this also.

"I actually don't have a name plate yet soo Im good with whatever."
OK - I based my comment on your "6 pole" diagram you posted earlier. I think NAV up and ANCHOR down is most intuitive.

Todd

P.S. As long as I'm giving my opinion, I'll give you another one (I know this is going to be controversial, but here goes anyway...):
Don't twist-n-tape your wires! - learn how to solder and use heat shrink tubing (it's really not that hard to do). This will save you countless hours trying to track down pesky wiring gremlins in the years to come.
OR, at least use crimp style connectors (looks like spade connectors are required to attach wires to the back of your switches).

Also, run one wire at a time and double check everything before you move on to the next wire.

Good luck - let's see her float!

The post numbers in these comments refer to the posts in my restore thread in my signature. Again apologies for the two thread thing. Im trying to keep it straight for everyone as it was my doing that its all spread out

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Ok here we go! The Final Revision!! I think its complete. Will some one please look through this to make sure it correct! It has a more realistic layout as it will be in the boat but its not to scale. The wiring from the fuse block to the loads will be 14 AWG. Are the ga for the wiring i have correct. I have had two comments for the long run of wire for the motor, both 4 AWG or 2 AWG? will 4 AWG cover it? Fuse in block im guessing are dependant on load? Again please take a look and let me know what ya think



EDIT: If you click the image and then click again once iboats opens your browser should allow u to click and zoom to see more detail

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Why do you have a circuit breaker and a fuse going to your fuse box from your bus bar?

 

[Don S]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Why do you have a circuit breaker and a fuse going to your fuse box from your bus bar?

He doesn't the 60A breaker goes to the fuse panel.
The 50A fuse goes to the amplifier :facepalm: aka an amp that will kill the battery in about an hour and a half and probably blow the rivets out of the boat in less time.

 

[mark1905]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

He doesn't the 60A breaker goes to the fuse panel.
The 50A fuse goes to the amplifier :facepalm: aka an amp that will kill the battery in about an hour and a half and probably blow the rivets out of the boat in less time.

You would be surprised at how efficient those things are these days. I can run all 6 amps for a couple of hours on two batteries just fine.

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Why do you have a circuit breaker and a fuse going to your fuse box from your bus bar?

There is a mistake in there and that fuse... im guessing... that ur referring to is the one in the fuse block diagram. That fuse is recommended when installing the fuse block (I'm thinking the 125amp max one) That actually wont be there as it was recommended that I use the 60amp breaker instead. I just forgot to edit the fuse block picture when i threw it all together. But as Don S. stated there is a fuse going to that battery killa from the positive bus bar.

Any recommendations for amp size on the common bus bars? Thanks for looking!

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

He doesn't the 60A breaker goes to the fuse panel.
The 50A fuse goes to the amplifier :facepalm: aka an amp that will kill the battery in about an hour and a half and probably blow the rivets out of the boat in less time.

Isn't that what pop rivets are for... easy rebucking (i think thats how ya spell it)

 

[Piece715]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

You would be surprised at how efficient those things are these days. I can run all 6 amps for a couple of hours on two batteries just fine.

Mark what's your recommendation for a deep cycle battery? Group size, etc.? and Don S. brought up something i was worried about.... i know blaring this thing will drain the battery quick but im not one for all that type of attention (minus the paint job); i just like great sounding music. What type of play length can i get?

 

[mark1905]

Re: Long run of battery cable... AWG?

Mark what's your recommendation for a deep cycle battery? Group size, etc.? and Don S. brought up something i was worried about.... i know blaring this thing will drain the battery quick but im not one for all that type of attention (minus the paint job); i just like great sounding music. What type of play length can i get?

I run the biggest deep cycle marine battery that I can get. I've been using WalMart batteries for the last 8 years with no problems. They're actually a Johnson Controls unit which if you do research is the same company that makes them for Interstate, Autozone, etc etc just with different brand names on them. I think it's a series 29 unit.. and with that class D amp you should be able to play for literally a few hours between charges.

Speaking of which.. those class D amps are no joke. I wish now that I had run nothing but from the start. They're so much more efficient than standard amps and will do 2 ohms without even breaking a sweat and while drawing what seems like half the battery power. You could easily wire up 8 speakers to those 4 channels with no problem whatsoever. Food for thought..

Believe it or not, I'm not an attention ***** either. I pull up to the sandbar and let everyone else blare their stereos and I keep it just loud enough to hear within a few feet of the boat. I honestly just love perfectly surround sounding, crisp, LOUD music.. and there's nothing better than cruising across the lake a mile or so from anyone with it at full capacity. You'll seeeeeeeee..