Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

[WA-Newb]

After seeing replies to my thread regarding my carbs spitting fuel and one carb needing gas to be sprayed into it for the motor to run better (http://forums.iboats.com/johnson-ev...tting-fuel-please-advise-possible-596867.html) I have decided it's time to inspect the reeds on this thin even though I am feeling it's over my head.

I would bring it to a shop BUT no shop around here says they will work on it because it's so old so I need to tackle this on my own...and can only do it with help from others like you

Can someone give me the basic steps I will be looking at doing for this project AND any Do's/ Don'ts that I may be unaware of. Thank you much.

My guess is this...

1. Remove carbs
2. Remove intake
3. Check reeds for ???
- Do I clean them, check for cracks, check gaps etc.?

IF nothing visible then put everything back on?
4. Replace gasket to intake
5. Replace carbs
6. Test motor

Also what about other causes of spitting fuel or no gas getting to carbs?
Blocked hoses, check valves etc.?

The carbs were rebuilt recently and the problem did not go away.

I am worried there is multiple issues which really makes it hard for a newbie like myself to figure out.
The thing under the flywheel (trigger base?) was all gummed up when I got it as well which would cause problems I am sure...I am pulling the flywheel off soon to inspect that area but do not think it has anything to do with the fuel issue...but if I am wrong please tell me.

Thank you much.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

If you have compression (approx 100 psi) and spark on all cylinders... spark that will jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame, a real SNAP!... That leaves the fuel system.

If that engine had a broken reed valve, fuel would shoot out of the related carburetor with every down stroke of the piston, plus if the reed was bad, shooting fuel into the carburetor throat would have no effect on the engines performance.

If shooting fuel into that same carburetor causes the cylinder to suddenly fire, you've overlooked something within the carburetor. I assume that you did clean and rebuild it?... BUT... did you manually clean the high speed jet that is located horizontally in the bottom center portion of the float chamber? If not do so with a piece of single strand steel wire as solvent just doesn't do a proper job of it. Fuel must flow easily thru that jet before it can gain access to any other fuel passageway in the carburetor.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Sorry for the delay Joe...I have been super busy and needed to get my other project boat out of here so I could pull this boat back in and start working on it. It took much longer than I had thought needless to say.
I now have this boat at my home and am ready to look into things again.

I am going to check spark again now that I have a jump tester.
I am going to try and clean out the high speed jet like you said.

As for a bad reed shooting fuel out on every down stroke. I do have some fuel spitting out on this one. I am not sure if perhaps this is normal amount, if caused by reeds or what. There is a brass plug next to each carb (I think an orifice) where I can fuel spitting a bit when it's trying to run.

Oh and I did not rebuild the carbs, it was done by a "professional" before I got it..cost the previous owner around $5-600...so hope they did a good job. It did sit for one season though since that work was done.

Since I don't know how it ran before he had the work done I have been worried I am going down the wrong path...maybe the carb issue was never the problem and they are just gummed up from sitting this past season.

He said he would just all of a sudden lose almost all power when he was out running this motor. After having to come in a couple times with the kicker he did the carbs, VRO and fuel treatment but it did it again so he sold it to me.

One possibly important note: right before I picked it up (after I agreed to buy it) it he said there was a wire going under the flywheel that had a very bad or loose connection that he found and fixed..and thought this could be part of the problem. I didn't have him take the cover off to show me what it was since we were both in a hurry (stupid me). He said it ran (on muffs) better than ever after he fixed that...I just don't know what that could be.

The video I made is kind of long at around 11 minutes or so, sorry for that, just wanted to show as mush as possible. You can fast forward I think.

Thank you.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

1987 120hp Johnson

I watched and listened closely to the full length video. Frankly I think the engine has a weird sound to it, and it is obviously NOT firing on that #1 cylinder.

Spark plugs should be Champion QL77JC4 plugs... set the gap to .040 for now.

Refresh my memory... What is the compression psi reading of each cylinder. Standing in back of the engine, facing the spark plugs, the cylinders are numbered as:

2....1

4....3

At cranking speed with all spark plugs removed, do you actually have spark on "all" cylinders that will jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP!?

The smaller wires leading from the powerpack to the individual coils..... describe their coloring such as the first color being solid, the second color after slash is a stripe... Blue/Orange, Orange/Green, whatever the colors are.

The engine sounds like it is not firing properly and I have encountered this more than once due to someone attaching those small primary wires to the incorrect coils.

Note that none of the V/4, V/6, or V/8 looper engines will run underway properly without the heavy duty carburetor face plate assembly installed and it must have the black thick rubber/foam gasket installed within it.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Wow..thank you for the time and such a detailed and informative response.

I am in the process of charging the battery fully...rounding up tools and that sort of thing so will get you more answers as soon as possible (just got the boat back here last night).

The compression test results showed almost exactly 125 on each cylinder.

I did not know that the carb cover was important when running...thank you for that.
But how about for idling / testing purposes at the dock? Is that ok?

For my record and to get answers for you soon:

Spark plugs should be Champion QL77JC4 plugs... set the gap to .040 for now.

will double check...

At cranking speed with all spark plugs removed, do you actually have spark on "all" cylinders that will jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP!?

will test today...

The smaller wires leading from the powerpack to the individual coils..... describe their coloring such as the first color being solid, the second color after slash is a stripe... Blue/Orange, Orange/Green, whatever the colors are

the cylinders are numbered as:
2....1
4....3

So it's #2 carb that will make it sound better when carb cleaner is sprayed into it
and #1 cylinder will not change the idle when coil is unhooked.

Does this mean it's actually idling on 2 cylinders then?

Thanks again...I am really hoping to get this one going soon so I can finally test the boat out.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Ok..got some results for you Joe.

The plugs are not what you said they should be.. unfortunately I could not find either of my gap tools anywhere so couldn;t check the gap. They are all the same though..and the #1 plug was black with soot while the others were cleaner.
The plugs in it are: NGKR BZ7HS10

The power pack to coil wires were as follows:
2...orange w/ purple stripe - 1...orange w/ blue stripe
4...orange w/ pink stripe - 3...orange w/ green stripe

The results of the spark jump with plugs out:
7/16" Very good blue with snap
1/2" Still good blue with snap
9/16" Didn't snap and seemed like it would only jump sometimes

I also unplugged the power pack harness (black smaller plug) and those connections looked good...but there are two other wires coming from the power pack which are brown (one with black stripe one with yellow) and they have been crimped with butt connectors so those connections could possibly be bad I suppose.
Also the brown wires I was referring to on the power pack do not have the same color stripes so hopefully those are hooked up right..or it doesn't matter maybe?.

Are these type of connectors ok? the last boat I worked on had some and the wires were just about gone right before the crimps.

The connectors I was talking about.


I saw another one here...the red wire is connected like that.


Not sure where to go from here...
I am wondering if I can take the Intermediate and High Speed orifices out safely to clean them out...or will there be adjusting etc. that will need to be done once those are touched?

Thank you.

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Joe, I just found this posted by you in another thread:

Should that stator be cracked and/or be dripping a sticky looking substance down on the powerhead area, that would indicate that the ignition side of the stator is failing. The clue is that the engine will have strong ignition (spark) when cool, but as it heats up, the igniiton/spark becomes weak and erratic... and eventually non existent.

This problem does sound like what the previous owner was trying to fix, loss of power at times..thus he did the carbs, VRO and went through entire fuel system.

So does the sticky looking substance look like wheel bearing grease by chance? Grey in color?
I am not sure if this is normal grease or the substance you were talking about.

Photos may not show it well since I "just" got done trying to clean it all up..right before I saw your thread...figures..lol

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Now I have another question...regarding my power pack.

The one I have has the number: 0583041 which cross references to a 1988 - 88 HP
The parts diagram says I should have: 0581404 (for my 1987 120)

But then I go to CDI and they sell one that replaces both units

113-3101 Replaces:
581404, 582262, 583037, 583041, 583101, 583102, 583103, 583336, 763797, 18-5892, 9-25023

So does that mean the one I have which is listed as an OEM for the 88hp is indeed ok to use for my 120?

This will be the same questions for my stator it appears...there is one for only $70 bucks or so on Ebay that is not for my motor..but the correct one selling at CDI will replace both mine and the one on Ebay...so does that mean I can use that cheaper stator?

 

[WA-Newb]

Re: Looking for help with newbie checking reeds on johnson 120

Wow...I am about ready to throw a tantrum...lol
Maybe a new issue...related or not..I don't know..VRO perhaps?

So I cleaned out the three jets...sprayed carb cleaner through all openings...then followed by compressed air.

Put it all back together (minus the carb cover)..and it will not start or even attempt to start.
I even did the pre-mix with a dash of starting fluid into the cylinders and nothing....got some steam to come out when I was done though.

So I rechecked compression and it was now at 130-132 on all cylinders...good spark, cleaned carbs...new fully charged battery but nothing.

I am a little perplexed about the choke mechanism on this and the VRO pump.

When I turn the key in I hear the click but I would think I should SEE something happen...or the butterflies should close (well that's if they were open I guess). The warmup lever only opens those things just a bit but the choke (key in) does nothing but clicks.

There is also some gas / oil coming out of the top of the fuel pump when I prime the bulb real hard...PLUS I pulled the gas line out of the tank (I am using a 5 gallon can with fresh gas so just have the hose stuck in it) and when I pumped the bulb gas blew backwards at me....does this sound right? I thought the squeeze bulbs were designed to go one direction.

I have done some more reading and saw posts about a solenoid and a red lever being the "choke" in a way..is this red lever the one on the VRO? I have never been around a VRO until now by the way.


Days like this are when I wish I was a drinker...or guess I am glad I am not...something like that anyway...lol