Lots and lots of advice required, please

[carlh]

OK, here we go.

Having owned a 17ft 115HP fishing boat and a 10ft inflatable I am thinking of getting myself something a little more relaxing and have my eye on the following little number moored on Lake Kariba, Zimbabwe (which is about 225 miles from me):

General.
Steel mono hull, 42ft long, 4ft draft. Volvo Penta 165 HP plus turbo (AQAD40?) 3440 hrs ? major overhaul at 3130 ? Volvo 280 fixed external leg. Full instrumentation. Max PAX 6

Lower Deck.
Front cabin - double bed.
Lounge ? double bed. Washroom with hot/cold hand shower and toilet.
Rear outside - 4 Plate gas stove/oven, wash basin, hot/cold shower

Top Deck.
Clear area with awnings and large cooler box.

As well as the boat being moored so far away the owner also lives a fair way and the only quick communication is by sms, so when I go to see him/and the boat I need to make sure I ask/look at all I need to, this is where I need all your help.

As this size and type of boat is well outside my experience/expertise can you all please tell me what questions I should be asking and what I should be looking for? Any advice greatly appreciated!

Questions I already have lined up are:
Age of boat
Age of engine
Engine model number (for further research)
Any repair receipts available
Fuel tanks size
Water tank size
What batteries are included and age
Any bedding included
Any pots, pans, tableware and crockery etc

I will update this posting regularly to list all the questions in one post and when complete it should be a useful checklist for anyone else considering buying a similar vessel.

Thanks all.

 

[woosterken]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

wow,beautiful boat but seems like a lot of boat for only a 165hp engine.
you say its steel , when was the last time it was out of water to have the bottom cleaned and repainted?


woosterken

 

[carlh]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

Hi,

Question about hull cleaning and painting will be added to list.

Regarding the engine I am told it cruises at 7 knots at 2000RPM though I will have to confirm this. Although the lake it is on is over 150 miles long the farthest I would be travelling in one day would be 30 miles maximum.

Carl

 

[oops!]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

yep....my only concern is that it is severely underpowered.

that kind of vessel needs a diesel and should be around 10-12 knots

 

[JoLin]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

wow,beautiful boat but seems like a lot of boat for only a 165hp engine.
woosterken

That's a full displacment hull and as such top speed is (generally) limited to the 'hull speed' of the boat. If the boat cruises at 7 knots, I'm guessing it tops out at about 9.

Here's an 'in the ballpark' calculator:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...fai=CzKvqoRZITL72KpXcygTKj7DICgAAAKoEBU_QKBaQ

If you assume a LWL (length at the waterline) of 40', hull speed is 8.5 knots. It takes a LOT of power to go faster than that because you start pushing a big bow wave. Doubling or tripling the power might help you maintain that speed in a blow, but otherwise won't buy you much besides a bigger fuel bill.

My .02

 

[oops!]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

good post jolin.

but wouldn't a gas pot be working its tail off to do the 7?

id really wanting diesel for that big.
i would be worried about seas....i just cant see a 165 gas battling larger water.

our old 43 footer was a wooden boat and we could do 12.

but if it is a fair weather craft and most of the time a dock queen......why not?

 

[JoLin]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

First, that boat IS a diesel. The 'D' in the engine model is a giveaway, along with the fact that it's only turning 2000 rpm at cruise. It's swinging a big prop.

Second, no- even a gas motor wouldn't work its tail off to make that speed. Think about your own boat at 1000 or 1200 rpm. You're probably travelling at your boat's hull speed and the motor is loafing. You're using very little fuel.

Any boat gets its best gas mileage at or around hull speed, before you start pushing that bow wave. For most of us, that's the point where we want to get on plane- the OP's boat will never plane regardless of how much power it has.

 

[Mischief Managed]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

You need the services of a professional marine surveyor. There's way to many things for a novice to check on a boat that size.

165 HP is perfect for a 40 foot displacement hull, but a 280 drive on a steel trawler??? That's a really odd combination in general, but what would worry me most is the galvanic corrosion situation.

 

[carlh]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

Sadly the guy that built the boat passed away last year and I dont think there was anyone to take over from him. I am trying to find someone with the relevant expertise to assist me but so far I have drawn a blank.

Carl

 

[Mischief Managed]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

I'd find out who maintained it and talk directly with them.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

Any boat gets its best gas mileage at or around hull speed, before you start pushing that bow wave. For most of us, that's the point where we want to get on plane- the OP's boat will never plane regardless of how much power it has.

This is true for a traditional displacement hull, but not any boat. It is irrelevent to a planing hull. A planing hull will be more efficient on plane.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed

Hull speed, sometimes referred to as displacement speed, is a rule of thumb used to provide an approximate maximum efficient speed for a hull. It is only ever an approximation and only applies where the hull is a fairly traditional displacement design.

This is a pretty good basic article on planing hulls:

http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/technical/237792-planing-hull-efficiency

Every planing boat has a speed range at which it?s most efficient ? a function of propulsion type, hull size, design and displacement, and the trim, or running angle. To get on plane, a planing hull has to climb over and pass its own bow wave; it has to get over the proverbial hump. This takes a great deal of power because of the hull?s high transitory angle of attack relative to the water surface. But once on plane, efficiency increases as the hull rises and trim decreases, flattening the wake and reducing form drag. With less hull bottom in contact with the water, frictional drag also decreases.

If you have a fuel flow meter and GPS, you can see it in your instantaneous gas mileage. You can also see it in typical planing hull performance data, like this 18' Stingray. Hull speed would be about 7 or 8 MPH, but it's only getting 2.3 MPG there while it gets 5.6 MPG on plane at best cruise.

Of course, none of this is applicable to the original posters question!

 

[The Famous Grouse]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

Personally, I'd consider trying to fly a marine surveyor in from somewhere else in Africa or Europe if you cannot find one nearby. Or at the very least a qualified mechanic. And given where you're located, it wouldn't surprise me if qualified surveyors are thin on the ground.

All the advice we can provide on "what to ask" won't do you much good unless you have the eye and experience to confirm whatever the owner tells you. For example, I can say check the boot and seal on the outdrive, but unless you know how to check them and what it looks like when they're bad, that advice won't do you any good. You'll just be stuck with whatever the owner tells you.

Also, you have to consider that terms like "overhaul" can have a wide variety of meanings. What, exactly, did they replace or rebuild during the overhaul? Did they just do what they had to like replacing bad rings or did they replace all valves, bearings, pistons, etc with new parts, new water pump, new gaskets, etc, etc? It makes a huge difference.

I assume for this boat you're looking at some reasonable coinage, so I think it would be foolish to go forward just believing whatever the owner tells you. Plus, there's the additional chance that things may be wrong that the owner doesn't know about.


Grouse

 

[carlh]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

The F G..

I think qualified surveyors are non existant here, airfare alone from Europe would be over ?1400 & 24 hours travel each way so thats a no go. I will try South Africa though.

Whilst I agree in part with needing an eye and experience I would be erring on the cautious side so if you said check the boot - if it looked perished, worn, cracked or otherwise the worse for wear I would investigate further.

I will check with owner what work was done at overhaul.

Owner is asking US$30,000 but I am looking at less, how much less is yet to be determined but as buyers of this sort of boat are as rare as qualified surveyors here I should be on a good footing to deal.

 

[JoLin]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

45Auto- I stand corrected. Not any boat. BUT, not any 'Planing Boat' will be most fuel-efficient on plane.

Here're the stats from the 'new boat' test of my Chris Craft in 1999 (also by 'Boattest'). It was equipped same as mine- 5.7 GSi/duoprop. It's most definitely a 'planing boat'. 50 mph top speed in test:

naut. stat.
rpm knots mph gph mpg mpg
1000 5.7 6.6 1.3 4.4 5.1
1500 7.5 8.6 2.4 3.1 3.6
2000 9.5 10.9 4.3 2.2 2.5
2500 15.9 18.3 5.8 2.7 3.2
3000 23.2 26.7 6.3 3.7 4.2
3500 28.9 33.3 8.5 3.4 3.9
4000 32.3 37.2 11.7 2.8 3.2
4500 35.8 41.2 20.5 1.7 2.0
4800 44.0 50.6 23.2 1.9 2.2

The last 2 columns should be labeled 'statute mpg' and 'nautical mpg'. The 24 C*C pulled best mileage at 1000 rpm.

I guess generralizations are always dengerous

(Ugh- sorry for the way the table formatted when I posted it - best statute mpg overall is 5.1 @ 1000 rpm. Best 'planing' mpg is 4.2 @ 3000 rpm.)

 

[The Famous Grouse]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

The F G..

I think qualified surveyors are non existant here, airfare alone from Europe would be over ?1400 & 24 hours travel each way so thats a no go. I will try South Africa though.

Whilst I agree in part with needing an eye and experience I would be erring on the cautious side so if you said check the boot - if it looked perished, worn, cracked or otherwise the worse for wear I would investigate further.

I will check with owner what work was done at overhaul.

Owner is asking US$30,000 but I am looking at less, how much less is yet to be determined but as buyers of this sort of boat are as rare as qualified surveyors here I should be on a good footing to deal.

Yes, I suspected a marine surveyor would be hard to come by, but even to have the engine and mechanicals evaluated by a mechanic would provide you with key informaiton.


But you are correct in that the ability to negotiate a lower price reduces the risk you're taking. If buyers are few and you have the available cash to make repairs should they be necessary, it's a better situation than having to have a high degree of confidence that you know everything about the condition.

Grouse

 

[korygrandy]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

I'm just curious you guys are always telling people to hire marine surveyors. Although I agree it can't hurt...what if they are wrong? Do you ask them for the money on the repairs? What kind of gaurentee do these surveyors have?

And your telling me this guy is going to dive under to survey the hull? I would expect that if I was paying him to inspect a possible $30,000 boat

 

[carlh]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

I now have contact details for the Kariba registered Volvo Penta dealer (whatever registered means?) and have emailed them for info/advise.

Regarding diving under the hull to inspect it, the population of crocodiles in the lake may make this a dangerous task, needless to say I have never seen anyone skiing and jet-ski riders are very rare.

Carl

 

[JoLin]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

I now have contact details for the Kariba registered Volvo Penta dealer (whatever registered means?) and have emailed them for info/advise.

Regarding diving under the hull to inspect it, the population of crocodiles in the lake may make this a dangerous task, needless to say I have never seen anyone skiing and jet-ski riders are very rare.

Carl

Well, there's a bit of culture shock- crocodiles aren't something that most of us need to contend with

The V-P dealer, if too far away, may know of a local mechanic who can help you. It's worth a try. Someone suggested a conversation with whoever maintained the boat. Also a good idea.

If you can find someone to inspect the hull, isn't there a marina around that can arrange a short haul of the boat for you? Don't hulls need to be repaired/cleaned/painted occasionally? How/where do people arrange it?

Good luck!

 

[Philster]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

I'm just curious you guys are always telling people to hire marine surveyors. Although I agree it can't hurt...what if they are wrong? Do you ask them for the money on the repairs? What kind of gaurentee do these surveyors have?

And your telling me this guy is going to dive under to survey the hull? I would expect that if I was paying him to inspect a possible $30,000 boat

A surveyor is often required to finance a boat. Why do people hire home inspectors? Because a home inspector should be able to say a list of things that need a fixun'. "Home was built with johnson rods and the cable loops are interfering with rod fluctuations, which can cause foundation to shift." Hey, that could be 10 grand worth of bargaining power. More importantly,y'aint gettin' a mortgage if the home inspection isn't passsed/completed.

Boats generally have a lot going on that people do not understand. Ever look around iboats?!! I'd even get a survey on a new boat, too.

No,they are not liable unless they are completely negligent. Ya know, if a broker makes sure a surveyor overlooks something to help the boat sell....

 

[carlh]

Re: Lots and lots of advice required, please

JoLin . .

Actully more people are killed by hippos than crocs but hippos tend to keep away from the harbours.

V-P dealer is based in Kariba where the boat is si I can get him to look at the mechanics. Have also asked him if he knows anyone capabe of surveying the hull.

There are several marinas but I aint too sure how they get the larger boats in and out. I have seen 30 foot steel hulls at one marina stored on trailers in what can only be called a parking lot. There is also a HUGE floating dry dock that can get 80ft pontoon type houseboats out of the water but I dread to think of the cost of that!! I will ask the V-P dealer about, Kariba ia a small place and as he in the trade so to speak he should be able to point me in the right direction.

Carl