Loud Sound Only In Water - Replacing Intermediate Bearings

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

Okay, this is what I found. The gears and bearings all looked great. The oil also looked great in the intermediate housing when I pulled the upper unit. The oil in the top bellow however looked mud brown.

There was only one shim inbetween the intermediate housing and the upper gear unit (which I know I don't know how many to use). However, I noticed there were NO shims between the bearings and the upper plate!

Also the oil is the wrong weight. I believe there is 80W90 gear oil in it, but it calls for 30 weight in the gears for this old outdrive.

 

[Don S]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

Okay, this is what I found. The gears and bearings all looked great. The oil also looked great in the intermediate housing when I pulled the upper unit. The oil in the top bellow however looked mud brown.

That mud is rusty water from the ujoints and probably the flywheel cover bearings.
Since you have the upper gear box off, start the engine and see if you still have the noise. Bet money the bearings in the flywheel cover are rusty because of water in the bellows. You best be prepared to pull the engine to replace them. It's a common problem when bellows are allowed to go bad before replacing them. Just like a Merc or OMC loosing a gimbal bearing, only you have to pull the engine to replace the intermediate bearings on Volvos.

 

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

That mud is rusty water from the ujoints and probably the flywheel cover bearings.
Since you have the upper gear box off, start the engine and see if you still have the noise. Bet money the bearings in the flywheel cover are rusty because of water in the bellows. You best be prepared to pull the engine to replace them. It's a common problem when bellows are allowed to go bad before replacing them. Just like a Merc or OMC loosing a gimbal bearing, only you have to pull the engine to replace the intermediate bearings on Volvos.

I did everything to remove the upper unit, except remove it. I could lift the unit, but it was difficult to remove because the upper unit was still connected somewhere in the bellow, and I heard it would be a pain to put that part back in. I didn't remove the entire outdrive, just the upper. Since I had seen nothing was seriously damaged in the upper I went ahead and put it back on (I know I need to replace some o-rings and such).

So the color is rust, thanks a lot for that info. Could the rusty bearings in the flywheel cover cause the noise when a load is applied? I'm just wondering because it did sound like it could be coming from that area... To fix that I'd def get a mechanic.

Could the noise be caused by having no shims above the bearings in the upper unit?

Thanks again Don S

 

[Don S]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

I did everything to remove the upper unit, except remove it. I could lift the unit, but it was difficult to remove because the upper unit was still connected somewhere in the bellow,

Once you lift the gear box out of the intermediate housing, all you do is pull it straight back, it's on a splined shaft.

Could the rusty bearings in the flywheel cover cause the noise when a load is applied?

About 99.9% of the time, that IS the noise you gear growling in the back of the engine. Could also be ujoints.

Earlier you said the gears and bearings looked fine? ?????? You can't even see them or check them without taking the gear box apart. Since you didn't even take the gear box OFF the boat, you can't take it apart. so how did you determine the gears and bearings were ok?

Could the noise be caused by having no shims above the bearings in the upper unit?

Hard to say in your case, but if it is, then the gears and bearings are dead also.

 

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

Once you lift the gear box out of the intermediate housing, all you do is pull it straight back, it's on a splined shaft.

After lifting if up I was trying to pull it straight back and it was catching on something in the bellows. I guess I'll go back and check it out later.

About 99.9% of the time, that IS the noise you gear growling in the back of the engine. Could also be ujoints.

Sorry I don't fully understand. You're saying that this is almost always the cause when you hear a really loud sound from that area? I thought it sounded like it was coming from where the flywheel is located. I really really hope the problem isn't there.

Earlier you said the gears and bearings looked fine? ?????? You can't even see them or check them without taking the gear box apart. Since you didn't even take the gear box OFF the boat, you can't take it apart. so how did you determine the gears and bearings were ok?

Well I removed the shift plate so I could see inside and see the outside part of the gears and the top cover so I could see the bearings which said "***, germany" on them. Ha well it bleeped out the town name.

Hard to say in your case, but if it is, then the gears and bearings are dead also.

This is in reference to it being those shims. I really hope that isn't the case! Thanks again.

 

[cr2k]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

A little more on shims...
The gearbox housings are cast and then machined to fit the bearing races, etc.
Since the machining equipment is not all exactly identical and the cutting tools wear, etc. it becomes necessary to "fit" the parts in with exact tolerances. These are adjusted with shims. You can NOT simply take parts out of one housing and put in the other with out going through the measuring and shimming process. Well I guess you can (as in your case) but it will not be right and will not last long and can make noise in the mean time.

Did you remove the belllows clamp before trying to pull the upper box?
lift the box up, remove the coupler and turn it sideways then pull it out.

 

[captmello]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

Those intermediate bearings are something that many DIYers can do. Many of us have done them.

You have to get the upper off and run it like Don said. However, once you get the upper off, you can reach in and feel the play in the driveshaft. Ther should be little to none. I'll bet they're shot.

As far as the shimming goes, I don't see any way you could continue using it without having a good mechanic go through the upper.

Try tapping on the side of the inner yoke to free up, and remove the upper. we know it was just off recently, right?

Let us know what happens.

 

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

A little more on shims...
Did you remove the belllows clamp before trying to pull the upper box?
lift the box up, remove the coupler and turn it sideways then pull it out.

If by that yo mean the ring around the outside of the bellows that allowed me to remove the bellow from the upper unit then yes. What do you mean by the coupler?, and I can't really turn it sideways because of the shaft going into the intermediate housing. Thanks a lot for the info you gave.

Those intermediate bearings are something that many DIYers can do. Many of us have done them.

You have to get the upper off and run it like Don said. However, once you get the upper off, you can reach in and feel the play in the driveshaft. Ther should be little to none. I'll bet they're shot.

Try tapping on the side of the inner yoke to free up, and remove the upper. we know it was just off recently, right?

Okay, so those intermediate bearings are located near the flywheel? Do I need to pull the engine or just the upper unit? Thanks!

For tapping on the inner yoke, what do you mean? And yes it was off recently, but he removed the entire outdrive, not just the upper.

 

[captmello]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

What do you mean by the coupler?, and I can't really turn it sideways because of the shaft going into the intermediate housing. Thanks a lot for the info you gave.

There is a coupler between the shaft from the upper to the shaft in the lower. It may just slide off and stay on the lower shaft. You should be able to tip the upper up in order to get the shaft clear of the intermediate housing, put a rag across the top of the intermediate and rest the upper on its side on top.

Okay, so those intermediate bearings are located near the flywheel? Do I need to pull the engine or just the upper unit? Thanks!

Like Don said, the engine has to come out. You pull it completely assembled. Mine has loops to attach a chain. Yours may also.

For tapping on the inner yoke, what do you mean? And yes it was off recently, but he removed the entire outdrive, not just the upper.

You said in a previous post that the upper was pulled and the rest sat outside in the rain.

The ujoint yoke is what is stuck on the driveshaft inside your bellows. If you can peel the bellows back, you'll see the yoke. It may just need a slight tap on one of the sides to get it to let loose.

You just use your third arm while you support the upper, peel back the bellows and tap on the yoke.

Its got to come off. Good luck.

 

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

There is a coupler between the shaft from the upper to the shaft in the lower. It may just slide off and stay on the lower shaft. You should be able to tip the upper up in order to get the shaft clear of the intermediate housing, put a rag across the top of the intermediate and rest the upper on its side on top.

Like Don said, the engine has to come out. You pull it completely assembled. Mine has loops to attach a chain. Yours may also.

You said in a previous post that the upper was pulled and the rest sat outside in the rain.

The ujoint yoke is what is stuck on the driveshaft inside your bellows. If you can peel the bellows back, you'll see the yoke. It may just need a slight tap on one of the sides to get it to let loose.

You just use your third arm while you support the upper, peel back the bellows and tap on the yoke.

Its got to come off. Good luck.

Thanks a lot! So now that I know what's stuck (The U-joint yoke).... how hard will it be to put it back in after I tap it out? Also could the wrong oil cause a loud noise in any way?

 

[Don S]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

The yoke is probably rusted on the shaft, that's why it won't come off. If you get it cleaned up right, it will slide on as it should.
NO, the wrong oil, or not enough shims or anything else is causing your noise. You have water in the intermediate bearings in the flywheel housing, which is also why the yoke won't come off.

Here is a thread with more info about the intermediate bearings in the flywheel cover.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=265021

 

[captmello]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

Read that thread Don linked. That may have been what brought me to Iboats in the first place. Now they can't get rid of me.

It is a big job but not too hi tech or specialized like rebuilding the upper gear box. There is a lot of labor involved which makes it expensive if you pay a mechanic.

If you want to learn your boat inside and out, this job will show you a little of everything.

However, we all have our limitations. Have you ever pulled an engine out of a car? Pulling it out of a boat is much easier than that. IMO

We'll help you through it if you want.

 

[EricKit]

Re: Loud sound only in water

Re: Loud sound only in water

NO, the wrong oil, or not enough shims or anything else is causing your noise.

I think by that you mean that those things are def not causing the noise right?

Thank you for that link! Looks like I have another project to get started on. You are alwyas a huge help, luckily I have all winter to get started.... but I have to find the parts...

If found this link. I think the parts I need are:

Bearing: 11013
Inner Seal Ring # 946242
Outer Seal Ring #958860
Snap Ring #914533
Lock Ring #914462
U-Joint: I found this link: Is this it: 3860226

I think I found the entire connecting components all connected to each other. Would that make it easier if it's in working shape?

Read that thread Don linked. That may have been what brought me to Iboats in the first place. Now they can't get rid of me.

It is a big job but not too hi tech or specialized like rebuilding the upper gear box. There is a lot of labor involved which makes it expensive if you pay a mechanic.

If you want to learn your boat inside and out, this job will show you a little of everything.

However, we all have our limitations. Have you ever pulled an engine out of a car? Pulling it out of a boat is much easier than that. IMO

We'll help you through it if you want.

I'll be here for it and will be asking questions all along the way!

I guess right now I'd just ask for tips/advice/how to get started after removing the upper unit (and tips for getting it out when it's rusted).

 

[captmello]

Re: Loud Sound Only In Water - Replacing Intermediate Bearings

#30 in this link shows the ujoints. Not sure what the other numbers are. entire assemblies maybe?

http://www.volvopentastore.com/Upper_Gear_Unit_Aq_Drive_Unit_270_270t/dm/*******.633396254--**********.984031016--store_id.366--view_id.317448

But check these out half the price!

http://www.iboats.com/U_Joint_Sierra/dm/*******.633396254--**********.620756499--view_id.187696

I wouldn't hesitate to use the sierra ujoints.

Snap Ring #914533
Lock Ring #914462

These should be ok to reuse. They're pretty heavy duty. removing those rings have brought many grown men to their knee's. Ask me how I know...

Regarding removing the upper. We know the yoke was separated when you had the outdrive worked on previously so it can't be that frozen on. Once mine bound up in the yoke and I was able to get a pry bar in behind the yoke where I could see the end of the driveshaft sticking out a little bit.

You're the one standing there looking at it however. Its in your hands.

Once you get it off, You'll be able to reach in and feel for play in the driveshaft.

then its into the engine compartment to prep the engine for removal.

Let us know what happens.

 

[krisnowicki]

Re: Loud Sound Only In Water - Replacing Intermediate Bearings

I had the worlds hardest time with this snap ring set up.... My advice buy a good set of snap ring pliers. Also, when you get the bearinf put it in the freezer and it will go in alot easier when it us cold

 

[Don S]

Re: Loud Sound Only In Water - Replacing Intermediate Bearings

Eric, a hint here, instead of makeing this one thread to fix your boat, and it will get really confusing when you start something different every 30 or 40 posts, and the thing gets out of hand. Just start a new thread on how to replace the intermediate bearings.
This thread was about a noise, that was found, now, move on to a new thread for the repair.